Truth or Fable?

[Sahansdal]

Thank you for stopping by and sharing your thoughts with us!

I want to hear what makes these people say that! I worked hard to get this right. I have spent a lifetime to get where I am at understanding the Bible, and it cost me all my high school friends, most of the others I made along the way, too, since then, so all I have is my wife's family (thank God) and some great Satsangi friends. All I need. But this is for Christians, as I left behind some dear friends as I left the Church in 1973. This hasn't been without cost. People are being lied to, and have been for centuries. What am I supposed to do, now that I know? Judas is the mystic sacrifice in this gnostic masterpiece! And 'Judas' IS James, a real MASTER. Are we to let this story get away without so much as a whimper???

I didn't start this. And I sure as hell am not letting it end with me. Two billion Christians is a lot of Christians. I soldier on!

No, you aren't expected to hide it or quit. And I admire you for both writing a book you had to know was going to be so controversial and for 'soldiering on' to reach the people you wrote the book for. I am truly sorry for all the people your faith and determination has lost you. I don't know if you've read all the posts in the forum, but a few of them outline quite succinctly why they think as they do. If you haven't read them all, I encourage you to do so. It might give you a few of the answers you're looking for.

Thanks. I think I have read them all. Some are quite constructive. I'm planning a short youtube version. If you know a good producer, I am looking...

[Van112]

We were given the holy spirit to accompany us throughout our life on earth. I stand by my belief that the Bible is real and what is written on it is the living word of God. So sometime there are a lot of things going on in our minds and different ideas arise which makes us question things that are not supposed to be questioned.

[Sahansdal]

We were given the holy spirit to accompany us throughout our life on earth. I stand by my belief that the Bible is real and what is written on it is the living word of God. So sometime there are a lot of things going on in our minds and different ideas arise which makes us question things that are not supposed to be questioned.

God gave us inquisitive minds for a reason. There are always a lot of deceptions out there. I have known the living Masters tradition all my life, just about. Start with my first book on the whole of the New Testament, Vivianne. https://www.amazon.com/Bible-says-Savio ... ler+robert

[Kelyn]

No, you aren't expected to hide it or quit. And I admire you for both writing a book you had to know was going to be so controversial and for 'soldiering on' to reach the people you wrote the book for. I am truly sorry for all the people your faith and determination has lost you. I don't know if you've read all the posts in the forum, but a few of them outline quite succinctly why they think as they do. If you haven't read them all, I encourage you to do so. It might give you a few of the answers you're looking for.

Thanks. I think I have read them all. Some are quite constructive. I'm planning a short youtube version. If you know a good producer, I am looking...

Unfortunately, I don't know any producers but many YouTubers produce their videos on their own. If you're looking though, might I suggest having a look at LinkedIn?

[Kelyn]

We were given the holy spirit to accompany us throughout our life on earth. I stand by my belief that the Bible is real and what is written on it is the living word of God. So sometime there are a lot of things going on in our minds and different ideas arise which makes us question things that are not supposed to be questioned.

Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts with us!

[Sahansdal]

We were given the holy spirit to accompany us throughout our life on earth. I stand by my belief that the Bible is real and what is written on it is the living word of God. So sometime there are a lot of things going on in our minds and different ideas arise which makes us question things that are not supposed to be questioned.

Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts with us!

Two big misconceptions: The Word of God is the Bible. And the Son is the savior. Both are 'Word.' It is called Word because we can actually hear it within. The Gospel of Judas calls It/Him/Her the "Apophasis Logos." So does the Gospel of Thomas. Muslims call it "the Messenger." The Old Testament writers called it "Name of the Lord." (The first recorded Master, or savior, was Seth, "when men began calling on the Name of the Lord," in Genesis 4:26.) Modern Masters call it Shabd, the Hindi/Punjabi for 'Sound.'

Nobody has corner on it. Masters come all the time, and in many different places. There have been lots of Old Testament, Christian era, Muslim, and modern Mystic Masters, or 'Saints' (Sants in Punjabi). The Sikh religion is the calcified remnants of the last of the TEN Sikh Gurus of the 1500s and 1600s. Guru Nanak was the first of the them. Kabir was a contemporary. There have also been FEMALE Saints. Mira Bai was a famous woman mystic poet of 16th century India.

[Sahansdal]

No, you aren't expected to hide it or quit. And I admire you for both writing a book you had to know was going to be so controversial and for 'soldiering on' to reach the people you wrote the book for. I am truly sorry for all the people your faith and determination has lost you. I don't know if you've read all the posts in the forum, but a few of them outline quite succinctly why they think as they do. If you haven't read them all, I encourage you to do so. It might give you a few of the answers you're looking for.

Thanks. I think I have read them all. Some are quite constructive. I'm planning a short youtube version. If you know a good producer, I am looking...

Unfortunately, I don't know any producers but many YouTubers produce their videos on their own. If you're looking though, might I suggest having a look at LinkedIn?

I'm not in the habit of using it, but I am registered. Thanks. One was recommended to me, but how much can one do in 5 minutes for $500? I looked into making it myself, but I want it look right, you know?

[Sahansdal]

Here is the basic presentation in a nutshell.

The sacrifice of "the man that bears me" in the gnostic Gospel of Judas isn't Jesus, as every one of the Bible-trained scholars assumes. It is Judas! This, I believe, is possibly the very beginning of the Pauline deception of martyrdom salvation.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostg ... fJudas.pdf

Dr. Robert Eisenman conclusively proves in his works that Pauline blood salvation doctrine is a derived inversion of blood purity observances of Essenes at Qumran. There is no salvation through blood. That is a Church creation. Salvation is a gift from living Masters of 'Word.' It only happens when both disciple and Master are living concurrently. There are no exceptions, even for Masters. (rssb.org)

http://roberteisenman.com/

In the gnostic Nag Hammadi Egyptian collection discovered at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, are three fascinating codices: the two Apocalypses of James and the Apocalypse of Peter. No one knows for sure when these were originally composed. They are acknowledged to be very early in the era of biblical Gospel manuscript composition (Dr. Hedrick Smith, The Nag Hammadi Libary, ed. James Robinson). All three have details that reappear in various ways in the canonical "Betrayal of Christ" narrative: Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22, and John 13 and 18. The Apocalypses of James are a narrative of mastership succession, the Apocalypse of Peter recounts a disciple learning mystic meditation.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/1ja.html
http://gnosis.org/naghamm/2ja.html
http://gnosis.org/naghamm/apopet.html

In the Apocalypses of James and Peter are details paralleled in The Betrayal:
A sign (the kiss)
Walking on a mountain/in a garden
A cup of bitterness/'this cup'
'Coming to them' three times/three denials of Peter/Jesus "in this night"
"the flesh is weak"
It will receive what has been ordained for it/thy will be done
A prayer/stopping this prayer
Armed multitudes seizing
"Hail, Brother!" / "Hail, Master!"
The kiss
Stripped and fleeing naked
Bring me from a tomb alive/"He has risen," 'risen from the dead,' and 'tomb'

Most parallels are in order, roughly, and often inverted from a positive gnostic sense to a negative orthodox sense. Nearly every line of The Betrayal is a derivation of some line in the Apocalypses' succession story. I counted 24 major parallels, and a number of less obvious ones.

The idea was to hide the succession of James as savior by creating a 'traitor,' 'Judas'. The nascent Pauline proto-orthodox Church needed to explain the role of James, especially after Paul killed him. ('Stephen' is James, with Paul present in Acts 7 as 'witness' -- or really, perpetrator, according to Pseudoclementine Recognitions 1.70. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.v ... i.lxx.html)

[Kelyn]

Thanks. I think I have read them all. Some are quite constructive. I'm planning a short youtube version. If you know a good producer, I am looking...

Unfortunately, I don't know any producers but many YouTubers produce their videos on their own. If you're looking though, might I suggest having a look at LinkedIn?

I'm not in the habit of using it, but I am registered. Thanks. One was recommended to me, but how much can one do in 5 minutes for $500? I looked into making it myself, but I want it look right, you know?

I understand. I wish I could be of more help but I know little to nothing about making videos/movies.

[Kelyn]

Here is the basic presentation in a nutshell.

The sacrifice of "the man that bears me" in the gnostic Gospel of Judas isn't Jesus, as every one of the Bible-trained scholars assumes. It is Judas! This, I believe, is possibly the very beginning of the Pauline deception of martyrdom salvation.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostg ... fJudas.pdf

Dr. Robert Eisenman conclusively proves in his works that Pauline blood salvation doctrine is a derived inversion of blood purity observances of Essenes at Qumran. There is no salvation through blood. That is a Church creation. Salvation is a gift from living Masters of 'Word.' It only happens when both disciple and Master are living concurrently. There are no exceptions, even for Masters. (rssb.org)

http://roberteisenman.com/

In the gnostic Nag Hammadi Egyptian collection discovered at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, are three fascinating codices: the two Apocalypses of James and the Apocalypse of Peter. No one knows for sure when these were originally composed. They are acknowledged to be very early in the era of biblical Gospel manuscript composition (Dr. Hedrick Smith, The Nag Hammadi Libary, ed. James Robinson). All three have details that reappear in various ways in the canonical "Betrayal of Christ" narrative: Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22, and John 13 and 18. The Apocalypses of James are a narrative of mastership succession, the Apocalypse of Peter recounts a disciple learning mystic meditation.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/1ja.html
http://gnosis.org/naghamm/2ja.html
http://gnosis.org/naghamm/apopet.html

In the Apocalypses of James and Peter are details paralleled in The Betrayal:
A sign (the kiss)
Walking on a mountain/in a garden
A cup of bitterness/'this cup'
'Coming to them' three times/three denials of Peter/Jesus "in this night"
"the flesh is weak"
It will receive what has been ordained for it/thy will be done
A prayer/stopping this prayer
Armed multitudes seizing
"Hail, Brother!" / "Hail, Master!"
The kiss
Stripped and fleeing naked
Bring me from a tomb alive/"He has risen," 'risen from the dead,' and 'tomb'

Most parallels are in order, roughly, and often inverted from a positive gnostic sense to a negative orthodox sense. Nearly every line of The Betrayal is a derivation of some line in the Apocalypses' succession story. I counted 24 major parallels, and a number of less obvious ones.

The idea was to hide the succession of James as savior by creating a 'traitor,' 'Judas'. The nascent Pauline proto-orthodox Church needed to explain the role of James, especially after Paul killed him. ('Stephen' is James, with Paul present in Acts 7 as 'witness' -- or really, perpetrator, according to Pseudoclementine Recognitions 1.70. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.v ... i.lxx.html)

Ok, now that my head has stopped spinning, (LOL) I take it this is what you are wanting to record?

[Sahansdal]

Unfortunately, I don't know any producers but many YouTubers produce their videos on their own. If you're looking though, might I suggest having a look at LinkedIn?

I'm not in the habit of using it, but I am registered. Thanks. One was recommended to me, but how much can one do in 5 minutes for $500? I looked into making it myself, but I want it look right, you know?

I understand. I wish I could be of more help but I know little to nothing about making videos/movies.

Yes. Most people don't read, but they do watch visual media.

[Sahansdal]

Here is the basic presentation in a nutshell.

The sacrifice of "the man that bears me" in the gnostic Gospel of Judas isn't Jesus, as every one of the Bible-trained scholars assumes. It is Judas! This, I believe, is possibly the very beginning of the Pauline deception of martyrdom salvation.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostg ... fJudas.pdf

Dr. Robert Eisenman conclusively proves in his works that Pauline blood salvation doctrine is a derived inversion of blood purity observances of Essenes at Qumran. There is no salvation through blood. That is a Church creation. Salvation is a gift from living Masters of 'Word.' It only happens when both disciple and Master are living concurrently. There are no exceptions, even for Masters. (rssb.org)

http://roberteisenman.com/

In the gnostic Nag Hammadi Egyptian collection discovered at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, are three fascinating codices: the two Apocalypses of James and the Apocalypse of Peter. No one knows for sure when these were originally composed. They are acknowledged to be very early in the era of biblical Gospel manuscript composition (Dr. Hedrick Smith, The Nag Hammadi Libary, ed. James Robinson). All three have details that reappear in various ways in the canonical "Betrayal of Christ" narrative: Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22, and John 13 and 18. The Apocalypses of James are a narrative of mastership succession, the Apocalypse of Peter recounts a disciple learning mystic meditation.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/1ja.html
http://gnosis.org/naghamm/2ja.html
http://gnosis.org/naghamm/apopet.html

In the Apocalypses of James and Peter are details paralleled in The Betrayal:
A sign (the kiss)
Walking on a mountain/in a garden
A cup of bitterness/'this cup'
'Coming to them' three times/three denials of Peter/Jesus "in this night"
"the flesh is weak"
It will receive what has been ordained for it/thy will be done
A prayer/stopping this prayer
Armed multitudes seizing
"Hail, Brother!" / "Hail, Master!"
The kiss
Stripped and fleeing naked
Bring me from a tomb alive/"He has risen," 'risen from the dead,' and 'tomb'

Most parallels are in order, roughly, and often inverted from a positive gnostic sense to a negative orthodox sense. Nearly every line of The Betrayal is a derivation of some line in the Apocalypses' succession story. I counted 24 major parallels, and a number of less obvious ones.

The idea was to hide the succession of James as savior by creating a 'traitor,' 'Judas'. The nascent Pauline proto-orthodox Church needed to explain the role of James, especially after Paul killed him. ('Stephen' is James, with Paul present in Acts 7 as 'witness' -- or really, perpetrator, according to Pseudoclementine Recognitions 1.70. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.v ... i.lxx.html)

Ok, now that my head has stopped spinning, (LOL) I take it this is what you are wanting to record?

Yes.

[Melissa Breen]

I think it's always interesting to see things from multiple sides. It's nice to think there was an ulterior motive but I didn't really understand where he was coming from with it, it was a bit confusing. Then again I'm not that familiar with the story in the first place, so maybe I need to reread the original story again

[Sahansdal]

I think it's always interesting to see things from multiple sides. It's nice to think there was an ulterior motive but I didn't really understand where he was coming from with it, it was a bit confusing. Then again I'm not that familiar with the story in the first place, so maybe I need to reread the original story again

Start with my first book: https://www.amazon.com/Bible-says-Savio ... ler+robert

It will help make sense of the new discoveries in Egypt (Nag Hammadi and the Gospel of Judas).

[Shade-Tree-Reader]

Kelyn-
I like to look at history from differing angles in order to get a more well-rounded picture of the issues. But, you are right that the work is very confusing. The author claims to be a Christian but his approach to Judas is openly anti-Biblical and his tone mocks the basic tenets of the faith. It does not help that one of this two "experts" was a convict (pedophile) at the time of publication. To even remotely imagine that Judas is who this book proclaims him to be negates every word that Jesus said about himself. It requires a certain amount of mental gymnastics in order to make sense of the fundamental break between 2nd century Christianity and the Gnostic movement.