Truth or Fable?
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- Lisa A Rayburn
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Truth or Fable?
Personally, I like considering alternate viewpoints. Although I did find the book somewhat difficult to understand and had to re-read several sections, the author seems to have done his homework. However, his research seems (to me) to be somewhat biased away from Christianity. Because of this, I'm reserving judgment. A more objective point of view would have done a lot better toward convincing me. How about you?
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I wholeheartedly agree. The direction of this book was impossible to decipher, and the author came off as haughty at some points and weak at others. I have no clue what the author is actually claiming, and half of the pieces of Judas he cites are missing chunks to the point that the meaning of each sentence cited must be entirely fabricated. These "parallels" don't prove anything, much less a conspiracy threaded throughout all of Christendom. I'm pagan, and even I think that this explanation is more off-the-wall than the existence of a single God.jlrinc wrote: ↑22 May 2019, 11:57 The book is complete nonsense without any redeeming value as a work of scholarship. Consider the following: The author begins by analysing the phrase anaphasis logos meaning the unspoken word, which he assures us conventional scholars cant understand because they arent trained in mysticism. He then quotes a Hindu swami at length to try to explain it. Now by conventional scholar he means Dr Elaine Pagels, who wrote one of the earliest commentaries on the Gospel of Judas. She is an atheist, female PHd in Early Christianity, one of the least conventional New Testament scholars who is publishing today and one of only a handful of American scholars fluent in Coptic, the language that most of the gnostic texts are written in. A book outlining how Hindu mysticism influenced the Gnostic authors would be interesting but there are none because Hinduism had no influence at all on the Gnostics which makes most of the first chapter irrelevant and unsubstantiated conjecture. Besides this there is actually a long tradition of Jewish Mysticism that actually did influence the gnostics and Dr Pagels is more than familiar with it. The author is way out of his depth on this book.
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I am not out of my depth.jlrinc wrote: ↑22 May 2019, 11:57 The book is complete nonsense without any redeeming value as a work of scholarship. Consider the following: The author begins by analysing the phrase anaphasis logos meaning the unspoken word, which he assures us conventional scholars cant understand because they arent trained in mysticism. He then quotes a Hindu swami at length to try to explain it. Now by conventional scholar he means Dr Elaine Pagels, who wrote one of the earliest commentaries on the Gospel of Judas. She is an atheist, female PHd in Early Christianity, one of the least conventional New Testament scholars who is publishing today and one of only a handful of American scholars fluent in Coptic, the language that most of the gnostic texts are written in. A book outlining how Hindu mysticism influenced the Gnostic authors would be interesting but there are none because Hinduism had no influence at all on the Gnostics which makes most of the first chapter irrelevant and unsubstantiated conjecture. Besides this there is actually a long tradition of Jewish Mysticism that actually did influence the gnostics and Dr Pagels is more than familiar with it. The author is way out of his depth on this book.
Pagels is Christian, first all, life long, and attends an Episcopal church. She attends church to HEAR about her savior. I have seen mine many times and heard many discourses in person. I never said the Gnostics derived or were influenced by Hinduism, which is not my faith, in any event. I point to modern SANT MAT as a way to help understand the Gnostics of history. Their teachings are incredibly similar, as should be expected if both are true; as is, in fact, the case.
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So, "Hail, BROTHER!" paired in place with "Hail, MASTER!" -- Gnostic to Orthodox, you think is not a significant parallel? WHY was it changed. I tell why. The orthodoxy had to support late virgin-birth church doctrine, a Pauline corruption, one of many. Let's hear your explanation. This occurs over and over, gnostic original inverted into orthodox corruption. Think, 'the Kiss.'freakkshowx wrote: ↑22 May 2019, 16:50I wholeheartedly agree. The direction of this book was impossible to decipher, and the author came off as haughty at some points and weak at others. I have no clue what the author is actually claiming, and half of the pieces of Judas he cites are missing chunks to the point that the meaning of each sentence cited must be entirely fabricated. These "parallels" don't prove anything, much less a conspiracy threaded throughout all of Christendom. I'm pagan, and even I think that this explanation is more off-the-wall than the existence of a single God.jlrinc wrote: ↑22 May 2019, 11:57 The book is complete nonsense without any redeeming value as a work of scholarship. Consider the following: The author begins by analysing the phrase anaphasis logos meaning the unspoken word, which he assures us conventional scholars cant understand because they arent trained in mysticism. He then quotes a Hindu swami at length to try to explain it. Now by conventional scholar he means Dr Elaine Pagels, who wrote one of the earliest commentaries on the Gospel of Judas. She is an atheist, female PHd in Early Christianity, one of the least conventional New Testament scholars who is publishing today and one of only a handful of American scholars fluent in Coptic, the language that most of the gnostic texts are written in. A book outlining how Hindu mysticism influenced the Gnostic authors would be interesting but there are none because Hinduism had no influence at all on the Gnostics which makes most of the first chapter irrelevant and unsubstantiated conjecture. Besides this there is actually a long tradition of Jewish Mysticism that actually did influence the gnostics and Dr Pagels is more than familiar with it. The author is way out of his depth on this book.
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So, "Hail, BROTHER!" paired in place with "Hail, MASTER!" -- Gnostic to Orthodox, you think is not a significant parallel? WHY was it changed. I tell why. The orthodoxy had to support late virgin-birth church doctrine, a Pauline corruption, one of many. Let's hear your explanation. This occurs over and over, gnostic original inverted into orthodox corruption. Think, 'the Kiss.'freakkshowx wrote: ↑22 May 2019, 16:50I wholeheartedly agree. The direction of this book was impossible to decipher, and the author came off as haughty at some points and weak at others. I have no clue what the author is actually claiming, and half of the pieces of Judas he cites are missing chunks to the point that the meaning of each sentence cited must be entirely fabricated. These "parallels" don't prove anything, much less a conspiracy threaded throughout all of Christendom. I'm pagan, and even I think that this explanation is more off-the-wall than the existence of a single God.jlrinc wrote: ↑22 May 2019, 11:57 The book is complete nonsense without any redeeming value as a work of scholarship. Consider the following: The author begins by analysing the phrase anaphasis logos meaning the unspoken word, which he assures us conventional scholars cant understand because they arent trained in mysticism. He then quotes a Hindu swami at length to try to explain it. Now by conventional scholar he means Dr Elaine Pagels, who wrote one of the earliest commentaries on the Gospel of Judas. She is an atheist, female PHd in Early Christianity, one of the least conventional New Testament scholars who is publishing today and one of only a handful of American scholars fluent in Coptic, the language that most of the gnostic texts are written in. A book outlining how Hindu mysticism influenced the Gnostic authors would be interesting but there are none because Hinduism had no influence at all on the Gnostics which makes most of the first chapter irrelevant and unsubstantiated conjecture. Besides this there is actually a long tradition of Jewish Mysticism that actually did influence the gnostics and Dr Pagels is more than familiar with it. The author is way out of his depth on this book.
Btw, the Greek loaner is "APOPHASIS Logos," or 'that word said without saying" -- a concept well-known in Eastern mysticism. If people are going to take me to task for what I say, I would appreciate it if the point is well-made, and at least without error. There are several here in this comment...jlrinc wrote: ↑22 May 2019, 11:57 The book is complete nonsense without any redeeming value as a work of scholarship. Consider the following: The author begins by analysing the phrase anaphasis logos meaning the unspoken word, which he assures us conventional scholars cant understand because they arent trained in mysticism. He then quotes a Hindu swami at length to try to explain it. Now by conventional scholar he means Dr Elaine Pagels, who wrote one of the earliest commentaries on the Gospel of Judas. She is an atheist, female PHd in Early Christianity, one of the least conventional New Testament scholars who is publishing today and one of only a handful of American scholars fluent in Coptic, the language that most of the gnostic texts are written in. A book outlining how Hindu mysticism influenced the Gnostic authors would be interesting but there are none because Hinduism had no influence at all on the Gnostics which makes most of the first chapter irrelevant and unsubstantiated conjecture. Besides this there is actually a long tradition of Jewish Mysticism that actually did influence the gnostics and Dr Pagels is more than familiar with it. The author is way out of his depth on this book.
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Perhaps the Gospel of Judas needs a champion, but this author is not speaking as a scholar, but as a devotee of a modern religion. Any plausible defense of an ancient document needs to come along with an understanding of its place in history.
Think of it this way - when an author makes an offhand allusion to a man in a tweed suit and deerstalker, bent over a magnifying glass, we can fairly safely assume the writer is speaking of Sherlock Holmes. Now, imagine this author's work is rediscovered after two-thousand years; 1,500, we'll say, after the desolation of the culture that produced it and after new cultures and nations have risen and fallen in its place. The offhand allusion survives, but what if the thing to which it was alluding did not? What if no record survived of the Greatest Detective and the London he inhabited? What if the inhabitants of this strange world of 4019 haven't the foggiest idea what in the blue blazes a deerstalker is? - I'd wager there are more than a few people today who couldn't pull that one out of their hat - and that's hardly at the distance of a single century.
My point being, we are at a distance of close enough to two thousand years from the creation of this document; have little understanding of the context - the people, time, and pressures that produced it; and we don't even have a copy of it in its original language (the author, himself, relying on a translation of a translation).
So, to address the question of the book: Was Judas 'Savior' or 'Betrayer'? First (or maybe not even first), we have to discuss whether Jesus was fully human, fully human and a Prophet, half-human-half-God, fully-human-And-fully-God, a spirit with no physical body, a spirit inhabiting a physical body, or something else entirely - all of which were actual, recorded beliefs from the early centuries of Christ-centric religions (look into the Christological Controversies - it's interesting stuff). We also have to discuss whether 'Christ' and 'Jesus' are one and the same or separate entities. The ancient Gnostics tended towards the 'fully spirit' (Christ) or possession models (Christ in Jesus) while what became mainline Christianity eventually established the doctrine of his being fully-human-And-fully-God (and, incidentally, that Jesus and Christ are one and the same). After that, we can debate whether delivering a fully mortal man to be killed could be called 'saving' and whether a spirit can be betrayed to death.
By which I mean; it's complicated.
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- Lisa A Rayburn
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*applause* I agree. Truth, much like beauty, is often based on perception. What satisfies one individual as truth will never satisfy all as truth or as the best way to live. Thanks so much for stopping by and commenting!
- Lisa A Rayburn
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It is definitely controversial, as this forum discussion is rapidly showing!! Thanks for stopping in and commenting!
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Interesting points. Makes me want to look up more of Dr. Pagels work. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!jlrinc wrote: ↑22 May 2019, 11:57 The book is complete nonsense without any redeeming value as a work of scholarship. Consider the following: The author begins by analysing the phrase anaphasis logos meaning the unspoken word, which he assures us conventional scholars cant understand because they arent trained in mysticism. He then quotes a Hindu swami at length to try to explain it. Now by conventional scholar he means Dr Elaine Pagels, who wrote one of the earliest commentaries on the Gospel of Judas. She is an atheist, female PHd in Early Christianity, one of the least conventional New Testament scholars who is publishing today and one of only a handful of American scholars fluent in Coptic, the language that most of the gnostic texts are written in. A book outlining how Hindu mysticism influenced the Gnostic authors would be interesting but there are none because Hinduism had no influence at all on the Gnostics which makes most of the first chapter irrelevant and unsubstantiated conjecture. Besides this there is actually a long tradition of Jewish Mysticism that actually did influence the gnostics and Dr Pagels is more than familiar with it. The author is way out of his depth on this book.