What do you think about the characters' naivete re technology and basic science?

Use this forum to discuss the June 2019 Book of the month, "Cynthia and Dan: Cyber War" by Dorothy May Mercer.
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Lindsey Klaus
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Re: What do you think about the characters' naivete re technology and basic science?

Post by Lindsey Klaus »

I think it's one thing to write a teenage girl or even a girl in the first couple years of college not knowing these details, especially in certain parts of the country that don't have decent sex education, but it's pretty weird for an adult woman working as the head of security for a senator in a cyber war to not know. It's kind of... contrived? Like, she's fighting terrorists. Many terrorists, even cyber ones, deal in sex trafficking and abductions, so I find it really silly she wouldn't know any of this stuff. If the author felt it imperative to put it in the narrative, it would've been a better choice to have Cynthia be the one to explain it to another (probably male) character, like Sky or Glenn or Dan, or to just have Cynthia go through her options in her narrative if the author didn't want to portray her male characters as naive.

To me, it sounds like a lot of these issues (especially the technology aspects) were things the author herself was just learning about, thus a lot of characters come across naive. I just find it really unrealistic that a woman who is HEAD of security wouldn't know what a smart phone is or that anyone would assume she wouldn't know what a smart phone is - or assume that anyone in the current age wouldn't know what a smart phone is.
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Post by Nisha Ward »

Lindsey Klaus wrote: 25 Jun 2019, 12:55 I think it's one thing to write a teenage girl or even a girl in the first couple years of college not knowing these details, especially in certain parts of the country that don't have decent sex education, but it's pretty weird for an adult woman working as the head of security for a senator in a cyber war to not know. It's kind of... contrived? Like, she's fighting terrorists. Many terrorists, even cyber ones, deal in sex trafficking and abductions, so I find it really silly she wouldn't know any of this stuff. If the author felt it imperative to put it in the narrative, it would've been a better choice to have Cynthia be the one to explain it to another (probably male) character, like Sky or Glenn or Dan, or to just have Cynthia go through her options in her narrative if the author didn't want to portray her male characters as naive.

To me, it sounds like a lot of these issues (especially the technology aspects) were things the author herself was just learning about, thus a lot of characters come across naive. I just find it really unrealistic that a woman who is HEAD of security wouldn't know what a smart phone is or that anyone would assume she wouldn't know what a smart phone is - or assume that anyone in the current age wouldn't know what a smart phone is.
I agree with this for the most part. If it was just the author just learning about these things, though, I wouldn't have an issue with it. The problem is that she portrays characters who are supposed to know these things as just learning about them.
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Post by CyndiA1 »

It's critical to know your characters. I've encouraged students to cut out magazine photos reflecting exactly what fictional characters look like and to keep notebooks with backstory even if not included in a story/book. I can't imagine putting a book out for readers where a major character appears to function on a middle school level in reference to general life skills/knowledge while being quite brilliant in other topic area. I do find that a real concern.
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Post by Nisha Ward »

CyndiA1 wrote: 25 Jun 2019, 13:23 It's critical to know your characters. I've encouraged students to cut out magazine photos reflecting exactly what fictional characters look like and to keep notebooks with backstory even if not included in a story/book. I can't imagine putting a book out for readers where a major character appears to function on a middle school level in reference to general life skills/knowledge while being quite brilliant in other topic area. I do find that a real concern.
I completely agree and the dissonance it creates is jarring.
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Post by tristenb »

I totally caught these too. I think it is interesting how Cynthia checked the Senator's office for trackers and was aware that people track everyone everywhere because of her brother and the cyber war, but yet she didn't bother to check her car for such a device. She also didn't seem to notice that Dan was following her until way after she should have. There were so many things that didn't quite fit together. Mercer was reaching to make the story interesting and ultimately failed.
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Post by Lucas Kalinic »

I do not blame Cynthia for her naivety. Some girls are mature but still have underdeveloped reasoning. I believe Cynthia falls in that category.
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Post by SunVixen »

Nisha Ward wrote: 13 Jun 2019, 16:32 In reading this book, I've found some very weird bits that don't make sense in a modern context. When Sky first meets Cynthia, he assumes that she doesn't know what a smart phone is and then Cynthia doesn't seem to understand basic things like sex leading to pregnancy and what Plan B is and how abortificents work. Furthermore, I've also found this with Tim, who's supposed to be this geeky, nerdy guy into computer science and technology not knowing how to hide IP addresses or how computers can connect wirelessly.

In the context of the book, neither of these things make any sense. What do you guys think? Were there other examples of this?
These things seemed strange to me too.
Theoretically, I can find an explanation for the innocence of Cynthia in matters of sex and babies. Suppose the author wanted to show that Cynthia was focused on her work and on her career so great that she didn’t even think about sex and babies.
However, this author's trick turned out to be very strange. As many people have pointed out here, girls learn about sex and about babies back in school. Therefore, Cynthia should have known about these things before her career began.
Also, I can not find an explanation for other strange plotholes, such as an unchecked car or IP addresses. This is a real mystery. :shock:
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Post by Nisha Ward »

SunVixen wrote: 26 Jun 2019, 12:21
Nisha Ward wrote: 13 Jun 2019, 16:32 In reading this book, I've found some very weird bits that don't make sense in a modern context. When Sky first meets Cynthia, he assumes that she doesn't know what a smart phone is and then Cynthia doesn't seem to understand basic things like sex leading to pregnancy and what Plan B is and how abortificents work. Furthermore, I've also found this with Tim, who's supposed to be this geeky, nerdy guy into computer science and technology not knowing how to hide IP addresses or how computers can connect wirelessly.

In the context of the book, neither of these things make any sense. What do you guys think? Were there other examples of this?
These things seemed strange to me too.
Theoretically, I can find an explanation for the innocence of Cynthia in matters of sex and babies. Suppose the author wanted to show that Cynthia was focused on her work and on her career so great that she didn’t even think about sex and babies.
However, this author's trick turned out to be very strange. As many people have pointed out here, girls learn about sex and about babies back in school. Therefore, Cynthia should have known about these things before her career began.
Also, I can not find an explanation for other strange plotholes, such as an unchecked car or IP addresses. This is a real mystery. :shock:
I mean, even if you don't have sex ed, I'm pretty sure that your parents would have told you about it in one form or another, right? Also, yes! The location thing bugged me so much because even at the time of writing it's relatively easy for someone with a major in computer science to find out an IP address.
"...while a book has got to be worthwhile from the point of view of the reader it's got to be worthwhile from the point of view of the writer as well." - Terry Pratchett on The Last Continent and his writing.
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Post by SunVixen »

Of course, she had to learn about children and contraception well before 25 years. If it was an author's trick, it obviously failed.
Also, I do not even know how the author wrote about this IP thing. This is not a bad trick, this is a clumsy mistake.
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Post by ElizaBeth Adams »

Considering how meticulous Cynthia was in her security job, I find it hard to believe she would walk away from her car with the keys in it and the doors unlocked. I also find it hard to believe she would go to a stranger's apartment alone, without at least telling someone.
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Post by Nisha Ward »

SunVixen wrote: 26 Jun 2019, 14:08 Of course, she had to learn about children and contraception well before 25 years. If it was an author's trick, it obviously failed.
Also, I do not even know how the author wrote about this IP thing. This is not a bad trick, this is a clumsy mistake.
I mean, the easiest way to do it would be to have Cynthia worry about not using a condom, discover she's pregnant and have a doctor explain it since they have to do that as part of the job.

As to the IP thing, I feel like that's one of the things that could have been referenced without having to go into an explanation about it. Like, just have one of the guys remark on it as an offhand comment on their work or something. That way you avoid having to look it up while still seeming like your characters have the right frame of reference.
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Post by Erin Painter Baker »

I couldn't finish the book and this was one of the main reasons. It read more like a teenage boy's fantasy than anything else. A hot woman who is head of security for a Senator and only employs other hot women? Cyber war with all sorts of new tech? Super cool!
Except the only part of this book that seemed to have any research was the information on Plan B and RU486. Nothing else was well researched.
I did my best to overlook some of the tech stuff because I work with people who have PhDs in Computer Science. I get not everyone has the same level of exposure to this as I do, and it could be tricky to research.
But seriously, the piece that truly broke me was in the background check of our young computer geek. He was working in DC on a summer internship, having just graduated with his BS, and he is looking to go to graduate school. It is the summer before he would start said grad school, and he is still waiting to hear on whether or not he was accepted? This would never happen. You apply for your final year of undergrad (if you know you want to go). You know if you were accepted in January. I guess he could have been wait-listed (though that wouldn't make sense with how awesome he was supposed to be), but April 15 is essentially decision day for all graduate programs in the United States. And so if you are wait listed, that is the latest you would get notified. And this information is available via an easy google search, or placing one call to any university in the country.
The lack of willingness to do even this basic level of research just made it impossible for me to finish the book.
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Post by Nisha Ward »

esp1975 wrote: 26 Jun 2019, 18:46 I couldn't finish the book and this was one of the main reasons. It read more like a teenage boy's fantasy than anything else. A hot woman who is head of security for a Senator and only employs other hot women? Cyber war with all sorts of new tech? Super cool!
Except the only part of this book that seemed to have any research was the information on Plan B and RU486. Nothing else was well researched.
I did my best to overlook some of the tech stuff because I work with people who have PhDs in Computer Science. I get not everyone has the same level of exposure to this as I do, and it could be tricky to research.
But seriously, the piece that truly broke me was in the background check of our young computer geek. He was working in DC on a summer internship, having just graduated with his BS, and he is looking to go to graduate school. It is the summer before he would start said grad school, and he is still waiting to hear on whether or not he was accepted? This would never happen. You apply for your final year of undergrad (if you know you want to go). You know if you were accepted in January. I guess he could have been wait-listed (though that wouldn't make sense with how awesome he was supposed to be), but April 15 is essentially decision day for all graduate programs in the United States. And so if you are wait listed, that is the latest you would get notified. And this information is available via an easy google search, or placing one call to any university in the country.
The lack of willingness to do even this basic level of research just made it impossible for me to finish the book.
I wouldn't even say that you need a PhD per se. A lot of the stuff, like finding IP addresses, were freely available on the internet when this was written. There have been tumblr extensions for this for years, I think.
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Post by Kristin Ransome »

There's so many holes in the logic in this book, but I have known people who are completely oblivious to the facts of life (and it was a very scary realization), so maybe that part is not too far-fetched?
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Post by Nisha Ward »

Firefawkes wrote: 26 Jun 2019, 22:29 There's so many holes in the logic in this book, but I have known people who are completely oblivious to the facts of life (and it was a very scary realization), so maybe that part is not too far-fetched?

Perhaps, but this is a woman who's said to be intelligent and competent enough to be a senator's head of security at twenty-five. Protecting her body should be second-nature.
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