Logic

Use this forum to discuss the March 2020 Book of the month, "House of Eire" by June Gillam.
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Anirudh Badri
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Re: Logic

Post by Anirudh Badri »

While I agree with the gist of your point, the first aspect is I think more believable. Even without being directly involved it makes sense that Hillary would be concerned as they had not been exposed to concerns like this before. That said, I do agree that authors often force characters to behave illogically to allow the plot to develop!
It is what you read when you don’t have to that determines what you will be when you can’t help it.

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Post by Tan TR »

AlexisLib wrote: 05 Apr 2020, 17:40 Some of the events and the character thoughts and reactions did not seem logical to me. For example, it did not make sense to me that Hillary and her family felt like they were in danger just because their friend was killed. They weren't involved in any way with the theme park development. And why would Sarah be killed? None of them knew anything.

When Hillary gets Bridget's packet, why would that be a big deal? All along it was just supposed to include research into Hillary's family, so why would anyone want to steal it, burn it, why would it put them in danger?

Playing hide and seek at night in an alley with your seven-year-old in not your own neighborhood? And with a man Hillary doesn't know she can trust? After there have been murders? I winced; I can't imagine parents allowing that so blithely.

I actually enjoyed reading the book, but these kinds of things made me feel like the author was forcing the characters to do these things just to make the plot work, which took me out of the story. They could have been fixed with more development.

Did anyone else feel like some things didn't make sense?
Exactly, it doesn’t make sense. This whole book is filled with those small details that don’t make sense. And even though they are small, they still bug you as you read. Then the story loses value.
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Bri C
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Post by Bri C »

Part of it, for me, isn't necessarily that I don't believe people do dumb things. But it's a lot less fun reading a book if the character is an idiot. Even if everything else is perfect, I won't get through it.
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Post by ZettieOby »

A child shouldn't be to left play hide and seek with a stranger not to talk of it being done in the night for that matter.
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Post by ThomasCShearman1976 »

AlexisLib wrote: 05 Apr 2020, 17:40 Some of the events and the character thoughts and reactions did not seem logical to me. For example, it did not make sense to me that Hillary and her family felt like they were in danger just because their friend was killed. They weren't involved in any way with the theme park development. And why would Sarah be killed? None of them knew anything.

When Hillary gets Bridget's packet, why would that be a big deal? All along it was just supposed to include research into Hillary's family, so why would anyone want to steal it, burn it, why would it put them in danger?

Playing hide and seek at night in an alley with your seven-year-old in not your own neighborhood? And with a man Hillary doesn't know she can trust? After there have been murders? I winced; I can't imagine parents allowing that so blithely.

I actually enjoyed reading the book, but these kinds of things made me feel like the author was forcing the characters to do these things just to make the plot work, which took me out of the story. They could have been fixed with more development.

Did anyone else feel like some things didn't make sense?
Yep, this, for sure. I enjoyed the book and gave it three stars, but there are a lot of holes in it and I wrote this in my review:

"Too many characters get posted on odd errands to allow smooth plot development, conversely creating friction in the storyline."

With thrillers and murder mysteries, for me, they have to be watertight.
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Post by sirbobthewise »

I'm so glad others are on board with this. There were so many aspects of the book that just did not seem logical to me.

However, I do think that Hillary's concern for her and her family's lives makes a small portion of sense. The data that Bridget had on her was obviously what got her killed, as we find she had dirt on Dermot and his family. Hillary didn't necessarily know what it was that got Bridget killed, but I think they were aware enough of the tie between her death and her research. With the research in Hillary's hands, it makes sense to me that they were feeling a little unnerved.

What I didn't understand was the actions of those who felt like they were in harm's way. The number of times that they didn't lock the door behind them, or forgot a flashlight, or took long midnight walks every night at the same time on the same path, or didn't safely keep guard of important evidence... there were just so many things that did not make rational sense to me. Perhaps the Irish are looser with locking their doors, I don't know, but as an American, that is something I've always been taught to do every time I leave the house or am in the house alone (My mommy always saaaays~)... and definitely, if I thought that I was in some kind of danger, I would be extra vigilant about that. Makes zero sense to me. Way too risky and too convenient for the progression of the story.
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Post by sirbobthewise »

As well, I think the author tried so hard to create this "good guy? bad guy?" vibe about Seamus, with Hillary's thoughts regarding him. She obviously didn't trust him entirely, as she kept on going back and forth between wondering if he actually loved Bridget or not, and wondering about his cool attitude in the entire situation. It felt like a very obvious move on the author's part, to try and create some suspense, but it felt really flat and wishy-washy for me. And in the end, it wasn't very logical for Hillary's character to suddenly be all for Seamus the good guy.

The entire scene at the end in the tower also made no sense. I mean, I don't think it was Seamus' original intention to kill Claire, to be honest, I think he just wanted to scare them enough to get them to go back home. But at the same time, if that's the case, what did he imagine would happen afterward? That he would fall (and possibly die), and then they would just be like, "I guess we'll go home now." If Sarah's death didn't move them to go home, I don't know why him getting a boo-boo would do it. It just didn't make sense that he jumped. There was next to no forewarning on this action, and instead of feeling like, "Whooooa, what? That's crazy!" I just kinda felt like, "Oh... huh? Why? Well, okay..." It didn't even feel like the move of a madman or anything, which is what I think Gillam was trying to do; it just felt awkward.

And was it not just super casually thrown in that the hired killer was Seamus' father? Like, how did they even know that? So random. So awkward.
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Post by sirbobthewise »

The author also seemed to put a lot of focus on Hillary's dreams, but personally, besides showing that she's still emotionally vulnerable due to the loss of her mother and giving an air of mystery, I don't see if they serve a purpose for the plot.

Likewise, there are many "supernatural" occurrences (Hillary seeing Seamus' aura, the woman in the white, etc.) that don't really ever get fully explained or even explained at all. While I can understand that the author was going for a vibe, they just didn't make sense to me when looking at the entire book. There were so many holes.
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Post by AlexisLib »

sirbobthewise wrote: 09 Jun 2020, 01:34 I'm so glad others are on board with this. There were so many aspects of the book that just did not seem logical to me.

However, I do think that Hillary's concern for her and her family's lives makes a small portion of sense. The data that Bridget had on her was obviously what got her killed, as we find she had dirt on Dermot and his family. Hillary didn't necessarily know what it was that got Bridget killed, but I think they were aware enough of the tie between her death and her research. With the research in Hillary's hands, it makes sense to me that they were feeling a little unnerved.

What I didn't understand was the actions of those who felt like they were in harm's way. The number of times that they didn't lock the door behind them, or forgot a flashlight, or took long midnight walks every night at the same time on the same path, or didn't safely keep guard of important evidence... there were just so many things that did not make rational sense to me. Perhaps the Irish are looser with locking their doors, I don't know, but as an American, that is something I've always been taught to do every time I leave the house or am in the house alone (My mommy always saaaays~)... and definitely, if I thought that I was in some kind of danger, I would be extra vigilant about that. Makes zero sense to me. Way too risky and too convenient for the progression of the story.
Great point about locking doors! I always lock my doors too. I am alone a lot; I just feel safer behind a locked door.

And I think at one point they left Claire alone in a hotel room after Sarah's death. Yeah, no way.
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Post by AlexisLib »

sirbobthewise wrote: 09 Jun 2020, 02:14 The author also seemed to put a lot of focus on Hillary's dreams, but personally, besides showing that she's still emotionally vulnerable due to the loss of her mother and giving an air of mystery, I don't see if they serve a purpose for the plot.

Likewise, there are many "supernatural" occurrences (Hillary seeing Seamus' aura, the woman in the white, etc.) that don't really ever get fully explained or even explained at all. While I can understand that the author was going for a vibe, they just didn't make sense to me when looking at the entire book. There were so many holes.
I think the dreams and the loss of her mother were set ups for book four. I agree they don't make a lot of sense in this particular book other than character development. It could have been used in some more significant way though if something about mothers had been in the plot and then she reacted to it.

P.S. I love The Count of Monte Cristo!
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Post by ThomasCShearman1976 »

Yeah, Claire after Sarah's death - they were roomies on the trip - was just plain odd. No real upset, sent off on a day trip, and the doors! Yes!

With all these nods and winks to book four, if book four is 250 pages, the surely book 3 and 4 is really just one, 500-page book? Perhaps it's been overly split. I don't know how long books one and two are.

And those plot kinks, I just had to go with them to enjoy the story. It needed a bit more thinking through, for sure. My writing club would tears my plot to shreds if I submitted some of the set-ups in this book.
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Post by sirbobthewise »

AlexisLib wrote: 10 Jun 2020, 18:09
sirbobthewise wrote: 09 Jun 2020, 02:14 The author also seemed to put a lot of focus on Hillary's dreams, but personally, besides showing that she's still emotionally vulnerable due to the loss of her mother and giving an air of mystery, I don't see if they serve a purpose for the plot.

Likewise, there are many "supernatural" occurrences (Hillary seeing Seamus' aura, the woman in the white, etc.) that don't really ever get fully explained or even explained at all. While I can understand that the author was going for a vibe, they just didn't make sense to me when looking at the entire book. There were so many holes.
I think the dreams and the loss of her mother were set ups for book four. I agree they don't make a lot of sense in this particular book other than character development. It could have been used in some more significant way though if something about mothers had been in the plot and then she reacted to it.

P.S. I love The Count of Monte Cristo!
Thank you for clarifying that! When you read a book out of order, sometimes it is difficult to remember that it's not an isolated book. I definitely would have preferred it if there was at least some plot tie-in to this book, so as to not leave people hanging and confused too much (I'm thinking that the author might have done this with the Dermot and Seamus characters as well. It's my hope, at least, that those loose ends in this book will be wrapped up later.), but it's good to remember that it could be addressed in the next book.

P.S. I know, right? Such a classic book. :)
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Post by ThomasCShearman1976 »

sirbobthewise wrote: 11 Jun 2020, 07:37
AlexisLib wrote: 10 Jun 2020, 18:09
sirbobthewise wrote: 09 Jun 2020, 02:14 The author also seemed to put a lot of focus on Hillary's dreams, but personally, besides showing that she's still emotionally vulnerable due to the loss of her mother and giving an air of mystery, I don't see if they serve a purpose for the plot.

Likewise, there are many "supernatural" occurrences (Hillary seeing Seamus' aura, the woman in the white, etc.) that don't really ever get fully explained or even explained at all. While I can understand that the author was going for a vibe, they just didn't make sense to me when looking at the entire book. There were so many holes.
I think the dreams and the loss of her mother were set ups for book four. I agree they don't make a lot of sense in this particular book other than character development. It could have been used in some more significant way though if something about mothers had been in the plot and then she reacted to it.

P.S. I love The Count of Monte Cristo!
Thank you for clarifying that! When you read a book out of order, sometimes it is difficult to remember that it's not an isolated book. I definitely would have preferred it if there was at least some plot tie-in to this book, so as to not leave people hanging and confused too much (I'm thinking that the author might have done this with the Dermot and Seamus characters as well. It's my hope, at least, that those loose ends in this book will be wrapped up later.), but it's good to remember that it could be addressed in the next book.

P.S. I know, right? Such a classic book. :)
Just noticed you are reading the Count of Monte Cristo! One of my all-time favourites. Perfect beach book, well, it was for me. Someone recommended Les Miserables to me on the back of it, but it just wasn't quite the same. Slightly off topic!

Back to the topic......I think books in a series do still need to be able to be read as stand-alone works.
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Post by AlexisLib »

ThomasCShearman1976 wrote: 11 Jun 2020, 11:39
Back to the topic......I think books in a series do still need to be able to be read as stand-alone works.
Interesting, I hadn't really thought about that, but I agree. I wanted to read this book because she's a writer and it was set in Ireland, so i was definitely drawn to it more than the other books in the series. If I felt like I had to read all the books in the series, I probably would have skipped it.

One thing I really liked about the way Rowling wrote the Harry Potter books was that she had some info in the beginning of each book that set you back into what happened before, so you could read them individually. It also helped refresh your memory when they were first coming out and had a year or so in between each book's release.
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Post by ThomasCShearman1976 »

AlexisLib wrote: 11 Jun 2020, 20:55
ThomasCShearman1976 wrote: 11 Jun 2020, 11:39
Back to the topic......I think books in a series do still need to be able to be read as stand-alone works.
Interesting, I hadn't really thought about that, but I agree. I wanted to read this book because she's a writer and it was set in Ireland, so i was definitely drawn to it more than the other books in the series. If I felt like I had to read all the books in the series, I probably would have skipped it.

One thing I really liked about the way Rowling wrote the Harry Potter books was that she had some info in the beginning of each book that set you back into what happened before, so you could read them individually. It also helped refresh your memory when they were first coming out and had a year or so in between each book's release.
On topic of logic, I am pretty sure I won't read the other two previous books so as to make more sense of this third one. I've read other series out of sync and then gone back to read the rest, because the book was so good. Not the case here.
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