Human vs. ... Other

Use this forum to discuss the April 2020 Book of the month, "Project Tau" by Jude Austin
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Melchi Asuma
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Re: Human vs. ... Other

Post by Melchi Asuma »

Humanity should be earned. If it feels like a person, act like a person, think like a person, then it is a person. Project Tau was not there yet though.
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Post by timd »

Again, I believe that our conception of whether a creature or an individual deserves rights and recognition comes from our ideas of culture. Just because you were created by means other than normal reproduction and belonging to a family, does not necessarily mean that you don't deserve to be recognized as a sentient being with intelligence and emotions as well. I believe that we will have to change our perceptions and values in the future.
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Post by La Loca Designs »

Part of what I really like about this book series is that it makes the reader think about these types of questions. Is a clone human? When does a clone become human? Whatever the scientific definition, I personally believe that no living being should be treated like Tau and Kata were treated in this book.
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Post by SunVixen »

Kelyn wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 22:29 Let's go philosophical for a moment. Both Project Tau and Project Kata are clones. Fact. As such, are they truly human? Do they or should they have the same rights as every other human? Or are these 'extras' grown in a lab (specifically as experiments), not really people, which is how Mason and the others treated them? After all, they weren't actually born. They have no mother, no father. So...what are they? Based on what you have read in the book about the Projects, their behaviors, needs, and desires, what do you think? Are they and, by extension, all (human-based) clones (which is a technology that already exists) human? Or are they...other and thus without the rights that being human brings?
To me, clones are undoubtedly humans. They are made from human cells, not from chicken or sheep cells. If someone kills and eats a human clone, wouldn't that person be called a cannibal? Cannibals are those who eat members of their species. So, human clones are biologically humans. If they are biologically humans, then they must be recognized as humans legally.

As for the fact that the clones were grown in the laboratory, many people here have already compared this to in vitro conception. In vitro conceived children are humans in every way. So the clones are humans too.

In addition, the clones still have a father and mother. A clone grows out of a human cell, and this cell must be taken from some person. Thus, this person is the biological twin of the clone, and his parents are the biological parents of the clone. Of course, these parents did not raise a clone as their child, but our world is full of biological parents who leave their children. An orphaned or abandoned child is still a human.
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Post by SunVixen »

Kelyn wrote: 18 May 2020, 14:29
diana lowery wrote: 17 May 2020, 17:51 So many ethical problems already exist with abortions, in-vitro fertilization, and other related issues, it is hard to imagine how regulating clones could be possible. It is exhausting and terrifying to think of the implications. Since it is possible to harvest a frozen embryo without both parties agreeing to the birth, will it be possible to clone someone against their will as it was done in the book?
I'm quite sure it will be possible to clone someone against their will, or even without their knowledge. All it takes is a sample of their DNA, a hair perhaps, or a fingernail. The ethical issues will indeed be complicated, as is reflected in the book. I don't really find the possibility terrifying; to me, it would be like having a twin, but it is definitely going to be challenging to regulate. Thanks for dropping in and sharing your thoughts with us!
If this is possible, then laws will appear to regulate this. Probably those who will create clones without the consent of the originals will be imprisoned.
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Post by Lisa A Rayburn »

SunVixen wrote: 07 Jun 2020, 06:49
To me, clones are undoubtedly humans. They are made from human cells, not from chicken or sheep cells. If someone kills and eats a human clone, wouldn't that person be called a cannibal? Cannibals are those who eat members of their species. So, human clones are biologically humans. If they are biologically humans, then they must be recognized as humans legally.

As for the fact that the clones were grown in the laboratory, many people here have already compared this to in vitro conception. In vitro conceived children are humans in every way. So the clones are humans too.

In addition, the clones still have a father and mother. A clone grows out of a human cell, and this cell must be taken from some person. Thus, this person is the biological twin of the clone, and his parents are the biological parents of the clone. Of course, these parents did not raise a clone as their child, but our world is full of biological parents who leave their children. An orphaned or abandoned child is still a human.
Well said! I would certainly consider someone who kills and eats a human clone a cannibal. I would consider a clone grown in a lab from the human cells of a 'mother and a father' to be human as well. But what if clones are grown explicitly to, say, harvest compatible organs for 'humans?' (I saw a movie where it was presented in that way.) In that situation, they would almost be considered the same as the pigs whose aortic valves we use to bolster human hearts. I don't consider this anywhere near ethical. I believe, as you do that clones are biologically human. There would be people, though, (the ones who profited from it in some way) who would argue the opposite. Completely unethical but, unfortunately, true.
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Post by Gabrielle Sigaki »

I think that what defines our humanity isn't necessarily our blood or our DNA. In my opinion, it's much more about feelings, about empathy, being able to love and be loved, but still, a clone is made of the same parts as a human and is able to make certain decisions. So this question is not totally solved, it's pretty hard to define what is a human being.
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Post by Lisa A Rayburn »

gabrielletiemi wrote: 08 Jun 2020, 12:50 I think that what defines our humanity isn't necessarily our blood or our DNA. In my opinion, it's much more about feelings, about empathy, being able to love and be loved, but still, a clone is made of the same parts as a human and is able to make certain decisions. So this question is not totally solved, it's pretty hard to define what is a human being.
Unless they have been brainwashed, or raised separately from society, as Tau was, I see no reason to think that they could not have the same intelligence, empathy, or emotional capacity as any other human. A 'normal' child raised in that way would have problems too. Yes, it is difficult to define "what is a human?" I think the answer is still to come. Thanks for dropping by and sharing your thoughts with us!
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Post by ReyvrexQuestor Reyes »

Project Kata was an "augmented" human, and so he must be human, first and foremost. Project Tau was a clone, and I opine, should still be human. For one thing, Tau is of a human genome. Although "it" or "he" was made in the laboratory, I would not take it away from him, the "human stature" just because he was made sans the humping that was the conventional way of impregnation, the method of which there's more fun. (Please pardon the metaphor).
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Post by Miller56 »

I don't think lab projects are actually human. We have not cloned humans yet, although it appears some researchers have tried. We have cloned sheep so is a cloned sheep any less a sheep. Probably not. Based on that thought then human clones are probably human. However, there are modifications to the individuals in the story and therefore, I am not sure they truly are human.
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Post by Misty20058 »

I think they may not have been made human but acted like one
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Post by Arwa_here »

Human clones are just as humans as sheep clones are sheep. As for emotions and humanity, if the clones live with normal humans in a normal society, they will have all these qualities.
But if they live in a lab where everyone is always telling them they're not "human", conducting experiments or modifying them in any way, these emotions will not have time to grow, much less flourish.
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Post by SunVixen »

Kelyn wrote: 07 Jun 2020, 15:38
SunVixen wrote: 07 Jun 2020, 06:49
To me, clones are undoubtedly humans. They are made from human cells, not from chicken or sheep cells. If someone kills and eats a human clone, wouldn't that person be called a cannibal? Cannibals are those who eat members of their species. So, human clones are biologically humans. If they are biologically humans, then they must be recognized as humans legally.

As for the fact that the clones were grown in the laboratory, many people here have already compared this to in vitro conception. In vitro conceived children are humans in every way. So the clones are humans too.

In addition, the clones still have a father and mother. A clone grows out of a human cell, and this cell must be taken from some person. Thus, this person is the biological twin of the clone, and his parents are the biological parents of the clone. Of course, these parents did not raise a clone as their child, but our world is full of biological parents who leave their children. An orphaned or abandoned child is still a human.
Well said! I would certainly consider someone who kills and eats a human clone a cannibal. I would consider a clone grown in a lab from the human cells of a 'mother and a father' to be human as well. But what if clones are grown explicitly to, say, harvest compatible organs for 'humans?' (I saw a movie where it was presented in that way.) In that situation, they would almost be considered the same as the pigs whose aortic valves we use to bolster human hearts. I don't consider this anywhere near ethical. I believe, as you do that clones are biologically human. There would be people, though, (the ones who profited from it in some way) who would argue the opposite. Completely unethical but, unfortunately, true.
I read somewhere about medical research aimed at growing donor organs from stem cells. For example, if someone needs a new kidney, this kidney is grown by itself and then transplanted to this person. This is more humane and more practical than growing an whole clone and having ethical questions.
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Post by SunVixen »

Arwa_here wrote: 10 Jun 2020, 03:03 Human clones are just as humans as sheep clones are sheep. As for emotions and humanity, if the clones live with normal humans in a normal society, they will have all these qualities.
But if they live in a lab where everyone is always telling them they're not "human", conducting experiments or modifying them in any way, these emotions will not have time to grow, much less flourish.
This situation is similar to those in which children were raised by animals or very cruel parents. They are undoubtedly people, but they could not develop as people. This is a problem of personal development, but not of origin.
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Post by Lisa A Rayburn »

ReyvrexQuestor Reyes wrote: 09 Jun 2020, 11:05 Project Kata was an "augmented" human, and so he must be human, first and foremost. Project Tau was a clone, and I opine, should still be human. For one thing, Tau is of a human genome. Although "it" or "he" was made in the laboratory, I would not take it away from him, the "human stature" just because he was made sans the humping that was the conventional way of impregnation, the method of which there's more fun. (Please pardon the metaphor).
Don't worry; your colorful metaphor made me laugh. And I agree, Tau having the human genome and DNA would perforce qualify him as human regardless of the method of his 'birth.' Add in the fact that he experiences emotion and has the intelligence of humans, and it's almost irrefutable.
Miller56 wrote: 09 Jun 2020, 14:07 I don't think lab projects are actually human. We have not cloned humans yet, although it appears some researchers have tried. We have cloned sheep so is a cloned sheep any less a sheep. Probably not. Based on that thought then human clones are probably human. However, there are modifications to the individuals in the story and therefore, I am not sure they truly are human.
I agree that a cloned sheep is, indeed, still a sheep in all ways except the means by which it was birthed. I don't think the modifications took away Kata's humanity. He simply became a modified human.

Thanks to both of you for stopping by and sharing your thoughts with us!
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