Human vs. ... Other

Use this forum to discuss the April 2020 Book of the month, "Project Tau" by Jude Austin
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Jorge Leon Salazar
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Re: Human vs. ... Other

Post by Jorge Leon Salazar »

If Kata and Kalin were created with human DNA, although they were developed in the lab, they should be treated as humans. They are living beings that breathe, think, feel, and suffer.
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Post by Mallory Porshnev »

I think they are not truly human. However, they should be entitled to the same rights a they will be living and acting in the human world as humans do.
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Post by Sydney Nyamasoka »

I have not read the whole book yet but just a free Amazon sample.

Interesting question. The projects are originally the invention of the scientists not their offspring and as such they are not humans as the scientists are.They only have features that make them similar to humans which can distort the views on their rights for example.

We assess this from evaluating the intentions of the scientists, what exactly do they intend to accomplish with these projects ?
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Post by Mehwish Qaiser »

JudasFm wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 17:00
B Creech wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 13:13 Was Kata actually a clone? Kalin Taylor was born, and he did have a father and mother. In his case, they took a live human and modified him. Right? That's how I understood it. Isn't that how he knew what they were doing was wrong whereas Tau did not? I'm not a major sci-fi fan so sometimes when I read one I can get confused! :?
You're absolutely right 😉 Tau was a clone; Kata/Kalin wasn't.
Thanks for that, I finally get it, I barely read sci-fi but whenever I do I end up confused :?
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Lisa A Rayburn
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Post by Lisa A Rayburn »

Rosemary Okoko wrote: 21 May 2020, 09:56 Having no parents and being a product of scientists, they are not human but look like humans and this likeness to humans gives them the rights.
Interesting. I'm not sure that just looking human would work for me. There may be aliens out there somewhere that look like us as well. I think it is the fact that they have emotions, instincts, and sentience of humans as well as stemming from our DNA that would make them human and, therefore, deserving of the same rights and freedoms. What do you think?
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Post by Ngozi Onyibor »

Even though the projects were created with human DNA, I don't think they should be accorded human rights. They are incapable of experiencing the depth of feelings that humans can regardless of their engineering.
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Post by mariana90 »

This discussion reminds me of the movie Bicentennial Man with Robin Williams (based on a novelette by Isaac Asimov). There, the question was whether a robot could be considered human.

I think that before we arrive to a conclusion, we need to determine exactly what it means to be human. Do you HAVE to have a mother and father? What about abandoned children? What about in-vitro fertilization? I think that centering the discussion around how we got here is a bit reductive.
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Post by Lisa A Rayburn »

Michelle Fred wrote: 22 May 2020, 16:36 Even though the projects were created with human DNA, I don't think they should be accorded human rights. They are incapable of experiencing the depth of feelings that humans can regardless of their engineering.
I'm not so sure about that. Although Tau, who was raised by the scientists from day one, did have difficulty even defining emotions, I think Kalin definitely got through to him on some level. I think it's a matter of what we consider as 'human.' Is it the ability to feel? Having human DNA? Having been 'born' in a human fashion (that is, via male and female genes/DNA, or whatever you wish to call it)? Possessing the right form (humanoid)? Or is it a combination of these things and more? Food for thought. Thanks for dropping in and sharing your thoughts with us!
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Post by Lisa A Rayburn »

mariana90 wrote: 25 May 2020, 09:58 This discussion reminds me of the movie Bicentennial Man with Robin Williams (based on a novelette by Isaac Asimov). There, the question was whether a robot could be considered human.

I think that before we arrive to a conclusion, we need to determine exactly what it means to be human. Do you HAVE to have a mother and father? What about abandoned children? What about in-vitro fertilization? I think that centering the discussion around how we got here is a bit reductive.
That sounds much like I Robot. I'm not sure, but I think that was Asimov as well. Is it the same book by a different name? I agree that this 'argument' is somewhat the same as in that/those book(s). But, obviously, even if not considered human, clones are much closer to that state than are robots. Hmmm....what is human. Good question. I certainly don't have a solid answer to that. I have centered my argument around the clones having human DNA and thus they should be acknowledged as human, but I see your point about much of the discussion centering around 'how we got here.' I'm curious to know how you would 'center' the question.
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Post by ZettieOby »

From the book's point of view, projects are lab experiment creations coupled with the fact that they have no souls. Therefore cannot be categorized as human.
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Post by hasincla »

Wow, these are some pretty complicated questions! It's clear (or muddled?) that there is no "right" or "wrong" answer, or perhaps no answer at all. This may be an issue that needs to evolve as the situation changes.
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Post by ZettieOby »

Other except for Kalin who became an hybrid. Project Tau was a creation of a lab experiment. For something to be called human it must have a soul.
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Post by kdstrack »

I agree with Odette Chace that we need to take into account that humans have a soul. If Tau was cloned with human DNA, then he would have a soul - regardless of how he was trained or treated by the scientists. Kalin was always human. The "modifications" did not remove his soul. The author throws us off by calling Tau a Project and by describing him as simple, (a childish mind.) His characteristics do not change his essence.
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Post by mariana90 »

Kelyn wrote: 25 May 2020, 15:45 That sounds much like I Robot. I'm not sure, but I think that was Asimov as well. Is it the same book by a different name? I agree that this 'argument' is somewhat the same as in that/those book(s). But, obviously, even if not considered human, clones are much closer to that state than are robots. Hmmm....what is human. Good question. I certainly don't have a solid answer to that. I have centered my argument around the clones having human DNA and thus they should be acknowledged as human, but I see your point about much of the discussion centering around 'how we got here.' I'm curious to know how you would 'center' the question.
They are different books. The argument for accepting robots as humans was that their "robotic" parts were substituted by synthesized organs (which humans were also using), and that the robotic fluid helping his body function was substituted by a blood equivalent. This caused the body to age and thus die, making them biologically "equal" to humans.

However, in Asimov's story, the real source of the robot's humanity was the fact that he expressed joy at carving something out of wood. To me, this represents our humanity better than our bodies. So I guess I would center the question around expressions of emotion, original thoughts, creativity, all these ineffable aspects of ourselves that we barely understand. But I don't really have an answer to the question of what does it mean to be human hehehe.
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Post by Lisa A Rayburn »

ZettieOby wrote: 26 May 2020, 10:07 From the book's point of view, projects are lab experiment creations coupled with the fact that they have no souls. Therefore cannot be categorized as human.
ZettieOby wrote: 26 May 2020, 18:03 Other except for Kalin who became an hybrid. Project Tau was a creation of a lab experiment. For something to be called human it must have a soul.
kdstrack wrote: 26 May 2020, 23:13 I agree with Odette Chace that we need to take into account that humans have a soul. If Tau was cloned with human DNA, then he would have a soul - regardless of how he was trained or treated by the scientists. Kalin was always human. The "modifications" did not remove his soul. The author throws us off by calling Tau a Project and by describing him as simple, (a childish mind.) His characteristics do not change his essence.
Honestly, I'm not that religious, so I hadn't considered that aspect. I can see how that should be taken into account, though. Even if we call a soul a less religious term such as 'lifeforce,' it is still something humans seem to possess. I agree that having come from human DNA and therefore (in my opinion) human, Tau would have a soul no matter the mechanics of how he was made. Kalin, of course, undeniably possessed this life force as he was initially human rather than a hybrid. I appreciate all of you joining in the discussion. Hearing all the different opinions is very interesting!
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