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Let's go philosophical for a moment. Both Project Tau and Project Kata are clones. Fact. As such, are they truly human? Do they or should they have the same rights as every other human? Or are these 'extras' grown in a lab (specifically as experiments), not really people, which is how Mason and the others treated them? After all, they weren't actually born. They have no mother, no father. So...what are they? Based on what you have read in the book about the Projects, their behaviors, needs, and desires, what do you think? Are they and, by extension, all (human-based) clones (which is a technology that already exists) human? Or are they...other and thus without the rights that being human brings?

They are Projects with human like features. Since they are lab created beings, they serve in the pleasure of their masters, that is, the scientists. Technically, they are slaves to the scientists and may not enjoy the same rights as other humans. And true, they don't have parents, so it would be appropriate to call them human-based clones.

Was Kata actually a clone? Kalin Taylor was born, and he did have a father and mother. In his case, they took a live human and modified him. Right? That's how I understood it. Isn't that how he knew what they were doing was wrong whereas Tau did not? I'm not a major sci-fi fan so sometimes when I read one I can get confused!

B Creech wrote: ↑02 Apr 2020, 13:13 Was Kata actually a clone? Kalin Taylor was born, and he did have a father and mother. In his case, they took a live human and modified him. Right? That's how I understood it. Isn't that how he knew what they were doing was wrong whereas Tau did not? I'm not a major sci-fi fan so sometimes when I read one I can get confused!

You're absolutely right Tau was a clone; Kata/Kalin wasn't.

JudasFm wrote: ↑02 Apr 2020, 17:00

B Creech wrote: ↑02 Apr 2020, 13:13 Was Kata actually a clone? Kalin Taylor was born, and he did have a father and mother. In his case, they took a live human and modified him. Right? That's how I understood it. Isn't that how he knew what they were doing was wrong whereas Tau did not? I'm not a major sci-fi fan so sometimes when I read one I can get confused!

You're absolutely right Tau was a clone; Kata/Kalin wasn't.

Thanks for clarifying that for me!

In terms of how they were born and made, perhaps not human. However, we even afford certain rights to animals, so it could be argued they deserve some kind of rights.

Nerea wrote: ↑02 Apr 2020, 02:39 They are Projects with human like features. Since they are lab created beings, they serve in the pleasure of their masters, that is, the scientists. Technically, they are slaves to the scientists and may not enjoy the same rights as other humans. And true, they don't have parents, so it would be appropriate to call them human-based clones.

I get what you're saying, but consider this. Is a frog any less a frog, with the natural instincts and behavior of its species just because it is 'lab-grown?" How about a sheep? Or a chimpanzee? See where I'm going here?

JudasFm wrote: ↑02 Apr 2020, 17:00

B Creech wrote: ↑02 Apr 2020, 13:13 Was Kata actually a clone? Kalin Taylor was born, and he did have a father and mother. In his case, they took a live human and modified him. Right? That's how I understood it. Isn't that how he knew what they were doing was wrong whereas Tau did not? I'm not a major sci-fi fan so sometimes when I read one I can get confused!

You're absolutely right Tau was a clone; Kata/Kalin wasn't.

True, I misspoke on that one. I apologize. And yes, that is how he knew. However, due to his modifications, Kata/Kalin is no longer considered 'human' even though that is how he first existed. Is that the way it should be, or is he, indeed, still human by right of birth?

Drakka Reader wrote: ↑02 Apr 2020, 19:04 In terms of how they were born and made, perhaps not human. However, we even afford certain rights to animals, so it could be argued they deserve some kind of rights.

I agree, definitely, that they should have rights. But...both of them, whether born (Kata/Kalin) or lab-grown (Tau) were created with human DNA. Are they not, therefore, human? Kata/Kalin was human by right of birth but is no longer considered human because of his modifications. Is it right to take away their 'rights' to being human and having the same rights because of something that was done to them by no choice of their own? Where is the line drawn?

This sort of gets into a lot of very different issues;
Does human DNA make you human? I would bet probably yes. If your DNA was 1% different you would be a chimpanzee. So human DNA should make you human.
Should Projects have the same rights as humans? Assuming in this universe all humans have the same rights... it would be very hard to mark a difference. The author brilliantly saves the issue of "how would a random person be able to differentiate a Project from a regular human?" by giving a lot of importance to identity cards.
The last question is, would society as a whole, allow for projects to be denied rights? I would love to believe in our universe, this wouldn't be possible. We as humans anthropomorphize everything, we assign feelings to animals, artificial intelligences.. even autonomous vacuums. I believe uprising would occur if mistreatment of clones was known... but then again, human history might not agree with me.

From the book, the projects are lab creations so they can't be human.. And in this, they deserve no human rights because their actions can go to the extreme if not controlled hence should be slaves to the scientists.

Personally, I feel that any creature that displays sentience are, without question, entitled to certain rights. We already know Kata / Kalin is a born human, but Tau should be treated no differently, even though he is a lab-grown clone. Given that he has clearly displayed sentience, original thoughts, and his own desires, he is no less deserving of human rights, regardless of origin.

Kelyn wrote: ↑01 Apr 2020, 22:29 They have no mother, no father. So...what are they?

I find the way you put this a bit funny since in our society, we have people that don't know who their father or mother is. Many of them are forced to live on the streets, but we still consider them human, don't we? I don't think the issue of having parents matters when it comes to defining a human. (I completely understand what you are trying to say about having no parents, I was just reminded of this situation)
Also, if they are living, breathing creatures, they deserve a certain amount of rights. Even animals are given rights. There are even animals that are protected by the government; they are given food, a decent habitat, and protection (people can even be jailed for harming these animals).

Kelyn wrote: ↑02 Apr 2020, 21:28

JudasFm wrote: ↑02 Apr 2020, 17:00

B Creech wrote: ↑02 Apr 2020, 13:13 Was Kata actually a clone? Kalin Taylor was born, and he did have a father and mother. In his case, they took a live human and modified him. Right? That's how I understood it. Isn't that how he knew what they were doing was wrong whereas Tau did not? I'm not a major sci-fi fan so sometimes when I read one I can get confused!

You're absolutely right Tau was a clone; Kata/Kalin wasn't.

True, I misspoke on that one. I apologize. And yes, that is how he knew. However, due to his modifications, Kata/Kalin is no longer considered 'human' even though that is how he first existed. Is that the way it should be, or is he, indeed, still human by right of birth?

That is a very good question! I wonder how his parents will see him if he makes it back home? Will they accept that he is their son with claws on his hands and feet, or will they think he is an imposter? It should be interesting in the next book!

The concept of project Tau reminded me, to some extent, of the Jason Borne story. Human or not, once they become a lab project, any rights they might have had simply disappear. They are brainwashed so that their behavior is shaped into a non-rational nature so that they can then be controlled with a conditioned-reflex mechanism (the same way Pavlov controlled his dogs' behavior);

The problem is if you keep some level of reason - minute as it may be - you can never fully controlled someone's behavior and that little reason that remains might grow and render the creature non-manipulable. The Prologue is very clear about this:

He didn't mention what had been bothering him for some time now; that if you trained a creature to question parts of an order solely for additional clarification, wouldn't there eventually come a point where it would question the order in its entirety?