Nature vs Nuture

Use this forum to discuss the April 2020 Book of the month, "Project Tau" by Jude Austin
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Nature vs Nuture

Post by funninessishappiness »

As we all know, Tau was created in a lab. Therefore, before Kalin, everything he knew was from the lab. One of the first things that Kalin asked Tau was "What about what you want to know." This causes Tau to ponder on the meaning of want. Before Kalin ever entered the picture do you think Tau would have eventually figured out what want is? Do you think want is a human emotion that would show itself regardless of the environment? Or do you think want is more of a social phenomenon that only occurs when others show you what you don't have? To put it simply, do you think it was nature or nurture that lead to the way Tau is now?
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Post by Brenda Creech »

funninessishappiness wrote: 11 Apr 2020, 22:52 As we all know, Tau was created in a lab. Therefore, before Kalin, everything he knew was from the lab. One of the first things that Kalin asked Tau was "What about what you want to know." This causes Tau to ponder on the meaning of want. Before Kalin ever entered the picture do you think Tau would have eventually figured out what want is? Do you think want is a human emotion that would show itself regardless of the environment? Or do you think want is more of a social phenomenon that only occurs when others show you what you don't have? To put it simply, do you think it was nature or nurture that lead to the way Tau is now?
Nature vs Nurture has always fascinated me. I like to ponder which is the most dominant in a person and I usually always lean more toward nurture. I am a believer that we are primarily a product of our environment. That being said, I believe we are all born with wants and needs, however, we are mostly taught our needs outweigh our wants. As for Tau, I think he would have continued obeying what he'd been taught instead of wondering about what he wanted because his wants were not acknowledged by the scientists. I think it was nurture that made him the way he is now due to Kalin pursuing the subject with him. :eusa-think:
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Post by funninessishappiness »

B Creech wrote: 12 Apr 2020, 08:05
funninessishappiness wrote: 11 Apr 2020, 22:52 As we all know, Tau was created in a lab. Therefore, before Kalin, everything he knew was from the lab. One of the first things that Kalin asked Tau was "What about what you want to know." This causes Tau to ponder on the meaning of want. Before Kalin ever entered the picture do you think Tau would have eventually figured out what want is? Do you think want is a human emotion that would show itself regardless of the environment? Or do you think want is more of a social phenomenon that only occurs when others show you what you don't have? To put it simply, do you think it was nature or nurture that lead to the way Tau is now?
Nature vs Nurture has always fascinated me. I like to ponder which is the most dominant in a person and I usually always lean more toward nurture. I am a believer that we are primarily a product of our environment. That being said, I believe we are all born with wants and needs, however, we are mostly taught our needs outweigh our wants. As for Tau, I think he would have continued obeying what he'd been taught instead of wondering about what he wanted because his wants were not acknowledged by the scientists. I think it was nurture that made him the way he is now due to Kalin pursuing the subject with him. :eusa-think:
I believe you are right. It was the nurturing touch of Kata that cause Tau to want to escape. I still believe that some part of Tau wasn't completely programmed the way the scientists wanted. I feel like even if we do get to the point where we can clone whole human beings it will be hard to truly make one the exact way we want. Genes change constantly and can sometimes do so of their own volition, regardless of the environment. Even when you are trying to make something that won't have the ability to rebel that doesn't mean that it can't be taught it either. You would have to almost isolate the clone its entire life. If you think about it, the biggest mistakes the scientists did was not separate Kata and Tau. Regardless of clones, human beings are social animals and learn from one another. To put two clones in the same room together should have made the scientists ponder on how that would affect Tau and Kata. If the scientists wanted a "trained" clone then they should have kept him separated from Kata.
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Post by Brenda Creech »

funninessishappiness wrote: 12 Apr 2020, 21:19
B Creech wrote: 12 Apr 2020, 08:05
funninessishappiness wrote: 11 Apr 2020, 22:52 As we all know, Tau was created in a lab. Therefore, before Kalin, everything he knew was from the lab. One of the first things that Kalin asked Tau was "What about what you want to know." This causes Tau to ponder on the meaning of want. Before Kalin ever entered the picture do you think Tau would have eventually figured out what want is? Do you think want is a human emotion that would show itself regardless of the environment? Or do you think want is more of a social phenomenon that only occurs when others show you what you don't have? To put it simply, do you think it was nature or nurture that lead to the way Tau is now?
Nature vs Nurture has always fascinated me. I like to ponder which is the most dominant in a person and I usually always lean more toward nurture. I am a believer that we are primarily a product of our environment. That being said, I believe we are all born with wants and needs, however, we are mostly taught our needs outweigh our wants. As for Tau, I think he would have continued obeying what he'd been taught instead of wondering about what he wanted because his wants were not acknowledged by the scientists. I think it was nurture that made him the way he is now due to Kalin pursuing the subject with him. :eusa-think:
I believe you are right. It was the nurturing touch of Kata that cause Tau to want to escape. I still believe that some part of Tau wasn't completely programmed the way the scientists wanted. I feel like even if we do get to the point where we can clone whole human beings it will be hard to truly make one the exact way we want. Genes change constantly and can sometimes do so of their own volition, regardless of the environment. Even when you are trying to make something that won't have the ability to rebel that doesn't mean that it can't be taught it either. You would have to almost isolate the clone its entire life. If you think about it, the biggest mistakes the scientists did was not separate Kata and Tau. Regardless of clones, human beings are social animals and learn from one another. To put two clones in the same room together should have made the scientists ponder on how that would affect Tau and Kata. If the scientists wanted a "trained" clone then they should have kept him separated from Kata.
I agree they shouldn't have put them in the same room together. They knew Tau was teachable because they had taught him to obey, so why take a chance of an outsider disturbing that? I wondered from the start why they put them together. I was also surprised they didn't have a hidden camera in the room with Tau and Kata so they could monitor their interaction and conversations! I believe everyone is born with distinct personality traits but their environment can affect what they want in some way. What we are taught as we grow and learn will either convince us to do what's right or make us more determined to have our own way. In that respect, nature is stronger than nurture! So who really knows which has the greatest effect on us?
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Post by SophiaNd »

I believe Tau was influenced more by nurture. Being made in a Lab, Tau is likened to a new born baby who does everything by emulation and by what he or she is being told to believe. Whatever Tau did or believed was more as a result of nurture from Kalin and yes, he would have discovered what want is but that would be much later when he must have come in contact with another being to tell him otherwise.
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Post by Jocelyn Eastman »

I think it’s both. I think Tau would naturally want if it wasn’t beaten out of him in the first place. In the book, he questions Dennison but is then punished. I think that was meant to show us that there are human traits in Tau, but they are suppressed. I think those human traits are brought out again with Kata and are refined more with him around.
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Post by Nerea »

B Creech wrote: 12 Apr 2020, 08:05
funninessishappiness wrote: 11 Apr 2020, 22:52 As we all know, Tau was created in a lab. Therefore, before Kalin, everything he knew was from the lab. One of the first things that Kalin asked Tau was "What about what you want to know." This causes Tau to ponder on the meaning of want. Before Kalin ever entered the picture do you think Tau would have eventually figured out what want is? Do you think want is a human emotion that would show itself regardless of the environment? Or do you think want is more of a social phenomenon that only occurs when others show you what you don't have? To put it simply, do you think it was nature or nurture that lead to the way Tau is now?
Nature vs Nurture has always fascinated me. I like to ponder which is the most dominant in a person and I usually always lean more toward nurture. I am a believer that we are primarily a product of our environment. That being said, I believe we are all born with wants and needs, however, we are mostly taught our needs outweigh our wants. As for Tau, I think he would have continued obeying what he'd been taught instead of wondering about what he wanted because his wants were not acknowledged by the scientists. I think it was nurture that made him the way he is now due to Kalin pursuing the subject with him. :eusa-think:
I totally agree with you. If Tau didn't meet with Kalin, he would continue subjecting himself to the scientists.
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Post by raindropreader »

From what I know of social psychology, we humans can be made to want and to be believe things that we never would had it not been for the social conditioning. I never underestimate the power of social conditioning. Therefor I have to believe that he wouldn’t have searched or wanted for more- that he would’ve believed what the scientists told him.
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Post by DragonLight877 »

Jocelyn Eastman wrote: 13 Apr 2020, 13:05 I think it’s both. I think Tau would naturally want if it wasn’t beaten out of him in the first place. In the book, he questions Dennison but is then punished. I think that was meant to show us that there are human traits in Tau, but they are suppressed. I think those human traits are brought out again with Kata and are refined more with him around.
I hadn't thought about this actually. Tau did start asking questions, like all children do. At first I thought it was all nurture. That if Tau was never taught to think for himself, he never would. But there is always that ingrained curiosity in all of us. And that is impossible to snuff out. So I think if they are originally there, I think eventually Tau would have snapped and attacked. It may take many many years, but I think eventually Tau would have had enough.
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Post by Splendour0606 »

Every human being has a natural tendency to want and it is influenced by our values or certain circumstances that surrounds us,In Tau's case,it was nuture because the circumstances that surrounded him was suppressing.
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Post by Ediomis_Enwongo01 »

Generally the issue of nature and nurture is like the coin with two faces. No coin exist without both faces. That Tau was made in the lab and lived with Kalin had a toll on his personality.
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Post by Marlaszw »

I think all humans naturally experience want. Part of what Project Tau lacks is just vocabulary to go with the things he feels. You can see by some of the things that come up, things that happened before Kalin came, that he did have wants. However, before Kalin came, he did not know that what he wanted mattered at all. This is where the nurture of Kalin comes in and it gives Tau the vocabulary to think about what want is, and to explore the ideas that maybe what he wants does matter, contrary to his prior conditioning.
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Post by Northernbird84 »

I think want comes from the nature aspect. There is always something inside us longing for something. Love, intimacy, survival, procreation. I think it's innate. Nature vs nurture is a really fascinating subject. Great question to ask!
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Post by [MagicDragonInc] »

Marlaszw wrote: 25 Apr 2020, 08:54 I think all humans naturally experience want. Part of what Project Tau lacks is just vocabulary to go with the things he feels. You can see by some of the things that come up, things that happened before Kalin came, that he did have wants. However, before Kalin came, he did not know that what he wanted mattered at all. This is where the nurture of Kalin comes in and it gives Tau the vocabulary to think about what want is, and to explore the ideas that maybe what he wants does matter, contrary to his prior conditioning.
I think this is really interesting point you've made. There was proof that Tau did have wants but was shut down immediately. He probably felt a power dynamic so he couldn't question the scientists and didn't even have the vocabulary to question them. Not to mention I'm sure he was exhausted mentally and physically at the end of every day, like when Kalin was when he arrived. This exhaustion might have prevented him from having the energy to question his own feelings. It took Kalin two years to start cracking (significantly) under the pressure and he had outside experience!

Another thing to take note of was that Dennison (and the other scientists) eventually succeeded in convincing Kalin that he was a project (for at least one year or more), and that his memories were implanted. I think this gets a vote for nurture over nature because his environment changed and he adapted to conform to this new environment. Taking into account evolution and adaptation, maybe Kalin let himself become convinced in order to survive? Agreeing that he is not human might have been the easiest explanation to keep Kalin alive and not face the gravity of the situation?
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Post by VictorKE »

According to me, Tau is strongly influenced by nature. Kalin, also contributed much in his personality.
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