I Beg to Differ.

Use this forum to discuss the May 2020 Book of the month, "Grace Revealed: Finding God's Strength in Any Crisis" by Frederick J. Sievert.
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Sushan
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Re: I Beg to Differ.

Post by Sushan »

sursangeet_2000 wrote:
20 May 2020, 06:09
I think God must see us as individuals. Why else would he give us free will? We get to choose when and how we access me. We get to choose how to or not to behave in a certain situation.we get to choose when we need his help and when we can do it by ourselves. He sees us ... imperfection and all ...but knows that we are more than all our imperfections put together.
That is correct. That is the meaning of being a human. You can make your own decisions, and the consequences are all yours
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Post by Sushan »

Ellylion wrote:
20 May 2020, 06:45
Nerea wrote:
01 May 2020, 01:18

Does God only “see perfection in Jesus,” or is He also interested in us as individuals?
I think God also sees us with all our imperfections, which is important for us to improve :)
Yes, that is the only way that we can be perfect. Someone has to first see the faults and then only he/she can guide the other
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Post by Sushan »

CambaReviewer wrote:
20 May 2020, 07:05
God does know our faults and sins because He is the all-knowing God but then He is also a righteous judge and when an offence has been paid ŕor in full... (by the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus), he bears that in mind when he evaluates us. I think that is what the author meant... :tiphat:
Seeing us as individuals and seeing our sins, I can agree with that. But why would He forget our sins because someone else (Jesus Christ) paid with His life for our sins?
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Post by Sushan »

sirbobthewise wrote:
20 May 2020, 07:25
These are only my own thoughts, of course, but I believe it is both. He only sees Jesus when He looks at us (looks at our sin) but he cares about us as individuals. I think what the author is ultimately trying to bring out is what that chapter is about, "Jesus paid it all." In other words, when God looks at us Christians (who believe in Christ and announce Jesus as our Savior) in our sin (because we will always be sinners, even when we cling to Christ), He no longer sees the sin inside of us as requiring punishment and death. Jesus, instead, paid the price for our sin (because only He could do such a thing) so that we could be reconciled with God.

When we believe in Christ, even though we continue to sin (because we are not perfect), we are reconciled with God (we no longer have to fear his punishment), because we are clothed in Jesus. Thus, when God sees our sin, He sees Jesus. I believe Rick Warren (who the author quotes in that passage) is speaking on the matter of sin and reconciliation, not God's intention toward us as His children.

So, in regard to our sin, God sees Jesus and does not require punishment or payment (because Jesus paid for it). On the other side, God is our creator, our Father, and therefore, cares about us deeply as individuals. He cares about our sanctification. But we are even able to be sanctified and grown in a unique, beautiful, and individually-crafted way because Jesus paid for our reconciliation first. We needed to be reconciled first so that we could even be able to HAVE a relationship with God, which will thus allow our sanctification process (through the Holy Spirit). I don't believe it's an "either/or" answer. It's both.

Thanks for the great question!
He cares us for all. But we can continue to sin and will never be punished. I am utterly confused. So, is it a license to be a sinner? Correct me if I have got this wrong
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Post by Sushan »

espo wrote:
20 May 2020, 13:04
I think some interpretation and context is needed to relate to this statement. I do agree that God sees Jesus when looking at us, because He made us in His image. I also believe that in order to love us like He loves Jesus, He must overlook all the mess and the scars we perpetuate and receive in our lives. That does not mean He does not see them, or He discards them. It just means that God's love is unconditional and looks beyond our human failures.
That I can agree with. His love is unconditional and He ignores our imperfections when he loves us. But still, He sees us as individuals
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Post by Becccccca+98 »

Sushan wrote:
30 May 2020, 22:51
Reubeney wrote:
19 May 2020, 20:17
I think God cares for everyone as an individual and once you accept to believe in Jesus your imperfections and sins are cleansed through faith.
I am confused. How can a belief just wash away your sins? What happens to the impact that it caused to others? Atleast it is fair to repay them for the inconveniences
Well, I think it's because Jesus died for our sins on the cross. When you become baptized, you are reborn in Christ.

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Post by Maconstewart »

Sushan wrote:
30 May 2020, 22:48
Maconstewart wrote:
19 May 2020, 16:21
I think it's a blending of the two. God gave us free will to be the individual we want to be. Once we acceot Christ and become a member of that family our sins, past, present, and future are washed clean. Paid for by the blood of Jesus. I believe that when God looks at us, he is aware of, and can see, all of our sins and flaws; however, as a member of his family, he ignores them and sees that Jesus covered them. Much like we as parents are aware that our children are not perfect...they make mistakes and bad decisions, but we love them anyway, unconditionally.
Parents love their children with no conditions. But do they just ignore when they do something wrong? If so, that will be totally unfair from the child's point of view
No, nothing should be ignored. There are consequences to everything, good and bad. Just as a child should be praised and encouraged when they make goid decisions, they should be corrected when making bad ones.
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Post by Melissa Breen »

This is a very interesting perspective! I'm not religious so I don't know enough to comment on how God views us, but it's interesting to know the different ways he is viewed and interpreted

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Post by sirbobthewise »

Sushan wrote:
30 May 2020, 22:58
sirbobthewise wrote:
20 May 2020, 07:25
These are only my own thoughts, of course, but I believe it is both. He only sees Jesus when He looks at us (looks at our sin) but he cares about us as individuals. I think what the author is ultimately trying to bring out is what that chapter is about, "Jesus paid it all." In other words, when God looks at us Christians (who believe in Christ and announce Jesus as our Savior) in our sin (because we will always be sinners, even when we cling to Christ), He no longer sees the sin inside of us as requiring punishment and death. Jesus, instead, paid the price for our sin (because only He could do such a thing) so that we could be reconciled with God.

When we believe in Christ, even though we continue to sin (because we are not perfect), we are reconciled with God (we no longer have to fear his punishment), because we are clothed in Jesus. Thus, when God sees our sin, He sees Jesus. I believe Rick Warren (who the author quotes in that passage) is speaking on the matter of sin and reconciliation, not God's intention toward us as His children.

So, in regard to our sin, God sees Jesus and does not require punishment or payment (because Jesus paid for it). On the other side, God is our creator, our Father, and therefore, cares about us deeply as individuals. He cares about our sanctification. But we are even able to be sanctified and grown in a unique, beautiful, and individually-crafted way because Jesus paid for our reconciliation first. We needed to be reconciled first so that we could even be able to HAVE a relationship with God, which will thus allow our sanctification process (through the Holy Spirit). I don't believe it's an "either/or" answer. It's both.

Thanks for the great question!
He cares us for all. But we can continue to sin and will never be punished. I am utterly confused. So, is it a license to be a sinner? Correct me if I have got this wrong
That is a really great question! Thank you for asking. :) Paul in the Bible actually directly comments on the same point, so it's definitely an important question! He writes in Roman 6: "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." I would want to put up all of Romans 6, but I think that would be too long, so if you would be interested, I might suggest reading Romans 5 and the rest of Romans 6 for full context.

The language can seem a little weird, so I hope I'm able to explain it well. If you have an interest in this, I would suggest asking a pastor to give a better explanation of it. Paul's words can be difficult to understand (they are difficult for me, at least!), but I'll try to explain the best that I can. When we accept Christ, we are made new. That's why we sometimes call Christians "born-again Christians." We believe that God gives us a new heart when we accept Christ. This means that while we are still sinners (and always will be until we are raised again) we are no longer enslaved to sin like how we were before we accepted Christ. We no longer desire to sin like we did when we were non-Christians. In other words, before we accepted Christ, we were sinners who could never choose good for ourselves. But with our new heart, while we are still sinners, we are at least now capable of not choosing sin with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives inside of us. Before Christ, we are unaware of our sin; but it is through Christ and through the awareness of our fleshly weakness, that we realize how incapable we are to not sin and not choose good without God's help; and we realize how much we need God's grace.

So, why do Christians sin if we have been made new? If we have God on our side and the Holy Spirit living inside of us to help us no longer choose sin, why do we still choose to sin? I believe that's because there is a difference between salvation, justification, sanctification, and glorification. Salvation is when we are saved; we are given the Holy Spirit and made new. We accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Justification is a one-time event at salvation (we are justified by Christ and no longer will receive the penalty for death, because Jesus died for us... this is what I was discussing in the previous post). However, just because we have been saved and justified, it does not mean that we are perfect. It does not mean that we not will sin; it does mean that our motivations and our desires toward sin change as we become sanctified. We slowly (sooooooo slooooowly) want sin less and want God more. We choose sin less and choose God more. So sanctification is the process throughout our entire life in which we are changed more and more into the likeness of Christ. We are more and more able to choose godliness and not choose sin (which is what we want now; or, at least, what we hope to want). We no longer desire to sin, but recognize that we are not perfect and that there are times when we still will sin, and so we rest in those times and days knowing the God's grace is sufficient for us. We do not punish ourselves for our sin, because Jesus already paid for our sins on the Cross. In those moments, we look to the Cross, grieve our sins, confess our sins to God (and, perhaps, to any parties that we may have sinned against), and continue to commit our lives and self to God, continuing the walk of sanctification. Our heart changed at salvation (so that we can be continually changed), and then the Holy Spirit inside of us keeps changing us through sanctification. Our motivations change within us and we find that we don't want to disobey God (or at least, we want to want to not disobey God). And our sanctification largely depends on our relationship with God and our relationships with others. We face Christ and keep our eyes toward the Cross no matter what, in comparison to before salvation when we were turned away from Christ. Glorification is the assurance that we will be completely removed from sin once going to Heaven.

So, do we have license to sin? As Christians, should we still live as if we are enslaved to sin? No. We have been freed from that and shouldn't walk in our old ways once coming to Christ. This is what Paul is saying. Should we aim to be more godly and to not sin? Yes. And it is our desire to do so, because it becomes our desire to obey God more when we accept Christ. That desire to obey Him comes from our love for Him, because He loved us first, not because of any obligation. But we still are aware that we are sinners. We are aware that we do this imperfectly and that we are in need of God's help and grace. However, through our salvation, justification, and sanctification, we are accepting that God has made us new and that we no longer have to follow in our old ways. And that we shouldn't. Because now we have help. Now we have freedom. Now we can choose life over death (sin). Do we? Not all the time. But that is why I'm grateful for God's grace, and that, is largely what this book is about.

I hope that makes some sense! If you have any more questions or follow-up questions, feel free to ask. :) Once again, thanks for an awesome question, and I hope I didn't confuse you more!

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Post by Nerea »

Maconstewart wrote:
31 May 2020, 08:19
Sushan wrote:
30 May 2020, 22:48
Maconstewart wrote:
19 May 2020, 16:21
I think it's a blending of the two. God gave us free will to be the individual we want to be. Once we acceot Christ and become a member of that family our sins, past, present, and future are washed clean. Paid for by the blood of Jesus. I believe that when God looks at us, he is aware of, and can see, all of our sins and flaws; however, as a member of his family, he ignores them and sees that Jesus covered them. Much like we as parents are aware that our children are not perfect...they make mistakes and bad decisions, but we love them anyway, unconditionally.
Parents love their children with no conditions. But do they just ignore when they do something wrong? If so, that will be totally unfair from the child's point of view
No, nothing should be ignored. There are consequences to everything, good and bad. Just as a child should be praised and encouraged when they make goid decisions, they should be corrected when making bad ones.
That's right. Correcting a child while he or she is young, will help them make better decisions when they become adults.
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Post by Nerea »

Sushan wrote:
30 May 2020, 22:58
sirbobthewise wrote:
20 May 2020, 07:25
These are only my own thoughts, of course, but I believe it is both. He only sees Jesus when He looks at us (looks at our sin) but he cares about us as individuals. I think what the author is ultimately trying to bring out is what that chapter is about, "Jesus paid it all." In other words, when God looks at us Christians (who believe in Christ and announce Jesus as our Savior) in our sin (because we will always be sinners, even when we cling to Christ), He no longer sees the sin inside of us as requiring punishment and death. Jesus, instead, paid the price for our sin (because only He could do such a thing) so that we could be reconciled with God.

When we believe in Christ, even though we continue to sin (because we are not perfect), we are reconciled with God (we no longer have to fear his punishment), because we are clothed in Jesus. Thus, when God sees our sin, He sees Jesus. I believe Rick Warren (who the author quotes in that passage) is speaking on the matter of sin and reconciliation, not God's intention toward us as His children.

So, in regard to our sin, God sees Jesus and does not require punishment or payment (because Jesus paid for it). On the other side, God is our creator, our Father, and therefore, cares about us deeply as individuals. He cares about our sanctification. But we are even able to be sanctified and grown in a unique, beautiful, and individually-crafted way because Jesus paid for our reconciliation first. We needed to be reconciled first so that we could even be able to HAVE a relationship with God, which will thus allow our sanctification process (through the Holy Spirit). I don't believe it's an "either/or" answer. It's both.

Thanks for the great question!
He cares us for all. But we can continue to sin and will never be punished. I am utterly confused. So, is it a license to be a sinner? Correct me if I have got this wrong
God cares for us and He has provided with His word, the Bible, so that we can learn His ways and apply them in our lives. Though we are imperfect, we sometimes fall short of error unknowingly. But willful sinning is unforgivable. So, if someone continues to sin knowingly, he or she will be punished. Remember, righteous people don't stumble. Why? Because they love God.
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Post by Nerea »

Sushan wrote:
30 May 2020, 22:55
CambaReviewer wrote:
20 May 2020, 07:05
God does know our faults and sins because He is the all-knowing God but then He is also a righteous judge and when an offence has been paid ŕor in full... (by the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus), he bears that in mind when he evaluates us. I think that is what the author meant... :tiphat:
Seeing us as individuals and seeing our sins, I can agree with that. But why would He forget our sins because someone else (Jesus Christ) paid with His life for our sins?
Ok. God does not forget our errors, but when we truly repent, He forgives us. Remember the account of King David?! God forgave him for what he did, but He didn't prevent him from the consequences of his wrongdoing.
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Melissa Breen wrote:
31 May 2020, 09:04
This is a very interesting perspective! I'm not religious so I don't know enough to comment on how God views us, but it's interesting to know the different ways he is viewed and interpreted
I'm not a practicing member of my reIigion as well, and it also fascinates me how people have different interpretations on God. I think this is a good study in sociology and psychology.

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Post by wendilou49 »

Sushan wrote:
30 May 2020, 22:46
wendilou49 wrote:
19 May 2020, 14:58
God most definitely sees us as individuals, but when we have become saved by the blood of Jesus, that blood covers all our imperfections and He no longer sees them. We may dwell on our imperfections and wish to be more holy and like Jesus but God already sees us perfect. When we sin again, He forgives us without questions and continues to see us as covered by the blood. I don't understand that completely, only that once I'm saved I'm always saved and God puts all my sins in "the deep blue sea", as the children's song goes. He's a mysterious and wonderful God!!!
If so, is it okay to do sins? Whatever you do will be ignored by Him and see only the perfection? Then why we have to be good?
No, it's not ok to sin. When we are saved our hearts are changed, and just as children seek to please their parents, so we should seek to please God. When we sin, we ask God to forgive v us... and just as a patent forgives their child, he says He already has

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Post by Sushan »

Katie Canedy wrote:
20 May 2020, 22:33
Yes, he does see us as individuals! With our sinful nature, we cannot get into heaven or achieve perfection on our own. We need Jesus Christ to do that. I think that the author was trying to get us to understand this concept in that part of the book. :)
Yes, He definitely sees us as individuals. And that is why we need to correct our sins and to be a good person in His eyes
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