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I found this book to be a truly fascinating read, but this particular passage piqued my interest:

"Cain’s foundation was the root of his inner conflict. The whole family knew the circumstances of the birth of Cain: he was the thirteenth born, borne of knowledge. Then Abel, the fourteenth child, had been conceived through faith. That everybody knew of the circumstances of Cain’s birth was not helping him. In reality, Cain’s birth had been no different from any other birth. But in the minds of men, the fact that he had been the thirteenth born made it different. Thirteen was a number that had come to mean rebellion―as it had been on Friday, the thirteenth day of creation, that Adam had eaten from the tree―and this day would be remembered forevermore as unlucky."

Do you believe the circumstances of Cain's birth is what ignited his rebellious nature, even before entering the world? Or do you think it was the fact that everyone knew of the circumstances of his birth, and therefore his nature was developed from the expectations of those around him?

Additionally, Cain also has an issue with his name and states numerous times the expectation of that name. Do you think his personality and demeanour may have been different if his name wasn't Cain?

I don't believe his name or the fact that he was born as the "unlucky" number of children in his family. I believe that Cain chose to follow his own will rather than listen to God's voice. It's the same today, I can have 3 or 4 children and raise them all the same...and yet one may chose to rebel while another chooses to follow God's word. Believing in circumstances is like believing in old wives' tales. The number 13 is no more unlucky than any other.

I sincerely hope the name didn't impact his personality. He would probably also have disliked another name. I can imagine him feeling annoyed about the rest of the family talking about the circumstances of his birth. Being born as 13d child is not causing rebellion in my opinion, but being talked about all the time can get on someone's nerves.

wendilou49 wrote: ↑08 Jun 2020, 11:44 I don't believe his name or the fact that he was born as the "unlucky" number of children in his family. I believe that Cain chose to follow his own will rather than listen to God's voice. It's the same today, I can have 3 or 4 children and raise them all the same...and yet one may chose to rebel while another chooses to follow God's word. Believing in circumstances is like believing in old wives' tales. The number 13 is no more unlucky than any other.

Well said! I could not agree more. However, what I never understood is why one chooses to rebel and the another one doesn't... but I do believe number 13 is not the reason.

Back then, numbers played a huge role in life. It wasn't so much a superstition but an emphasis placed on them by God himself. Although we can disagree with Cain's treatment today due to research and scientific analysis, I believe Cain's treatment was supported by numbers. I can understand why others acted the way they did based on the numbers surrounded Cain's birth.

Ir's not whether or not he believed the number of his birth was unlucky. Everyone around him, including his family, believed it and therefore treated him differently...and probably not in a kind way. I believe babies are born as blank slates. Both nature and nurture affect how they develop. In that environment what child wouldn't grow up resentful of being singled out and 'spat on' (figuratively) because of something he had no control over?

I think that it can be some influence of the number since numbers can have great symbolism. But I agree that what seems to have more effect was the way everybody acted because of it, not the number itself.

wendilou49 wrote: ↑08 Jun 2020, 11:44 I don't believe his name or the fact that he was born as the "unlucky" number of children in his family. I believe that Cain chose to follow his own will rather than listen to God's voice. It's the same today, I can have 3 or 4 children and raise them all the same...and yet one may chose to rebel while another chooses to follow God's word. Believing in circumstances is like believing in old wives' tales. The number 13 is no more unlucky than any other.

Your comment drives me to the philosophical question of whether fate is real. Numbers have had a deeper meaning since time immemorial: it would be wrong to point out that they don't influence our habits. A good example is 'lucky numbers' which so many people assume are lucky. My opinion is that Cain might have been influenced by the comments and behaviors of his family towards him. Unlike in the contemporary world, back then, culture was followed to the letter.

Kelyn wrote: ↑08 Jun 2020, 16:18 Ir's not whether or not he believed the number of his birth was unlucky. Everyone around him, including his family, believed it and therefore treated him differently...and probably not in a kind way. I believe babies are born as blank slates. Both nature and nurture affect how they develop. In that environment what child wouldn't grow up resentful of being singled out and 'spat on' (figuratively) because of something he had no control over?

Even a cub becomes bold by following the lions that kill and roar in the jungle. Our environment and exposure have a lot to do with who we grow up to be.

Xenolyph wrote: ↑08 Jun 2020, 15:03 Back then, numbers played a huge role in life. It wasn't so much a superstition but an emphasis placed on them by God himself. Although we can disagree with Cain's treatment today due to research and scientific analysis, I believe Cain's treatment was supported by numbers. I can understand why others acted the way they did based on the numbers surrounded Cain's birth.

It's the paradigm shift of culture and long years of religious affiliation.

This sparks a debate between Nature and Nurture. I feel that everyone is born with certain tendencies or predispositions toward traits, whether these may be for better or worse. However, one's environment and upbringing are what ultimately determine their fate.

wendilou49 wrote: ↑08 Jun 2020, 11:44 I don't believe his name or the fact that he was born as the "unlucky" number of children in his family. I believe that Cain chose to follow his own will rather than listen to God's voice. It's the same today, I can have 3 or 4 children and raise them all the same...and yet one may chose to rebel while another chooses to follow God's word. Believing in circumstances is like believing in old wives' tales. The number 13 is no more unlucky than any other.

I agree. Using these "explanations" only diminishes self-accountability. We are all different and make different decisions, even if raised the same.

I do not believe Cain should have behaved like that regardless of the circumstances around his birth. It is a personal decision to allow superstition dictate your life choices. The only way he might have behaved this badly, in relation to superstition, is if his parents and other relatives continually fed it into his mind that he was a bad seed of a child due to the day of his birth. One thing to remember though is that every human has the power of choice, whether it be good or bad.

Joseph_ngaruiya wrote: ↑09 Jun 2020, 14:12

Kelyn wrote: ↑08 Jun 2020, 16:18 Ir's not whether or not he believed the number of his birth was unlucky. Everyone around him, including his family, believed it and therefore treated him differently...and probably not in a kind way. I believe babies are born as blank slates. Both nature and nurture affect how they develop. In that environment what child wouldn't grow up resentful of being singled out and 'spat on' (figuratively) because of something he had no control over?

Even a cub becomes bold by following the lions that kill and roar in the jungle. Our environment and exposure have a lot to do with who we grow up to be.

I agree with these assessments. Often, other’s expectations and treatment have a marked difference in the attitudes and choices we make. Certainly we have control over what we do, but the influences of those around us cannot be discounted. Perhaps Cain may have been a difficult child no matter what, but the additional assumption and watchfulness of others could have easily been the extra push toward that expected outcome that he eventually fulfilled.

jdsatosk wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 01:31

Joseph_ngaruiya wrote: ↑09 Jun 2020, 14:12

Kelyn wrote: ↑08 Jun 2020, 16:18 Ir's not whether or not he believed the number of his birth was unlucky. Everyone around him, including his family, believed it and therefore treated him differently...and probably not in a kind way. I believe babies are born as blank slates. Both nature and nurture affect how they develop. In that environment what child wouldn't grow up resentful of being singled out and 'spat on' (figuratively) because of something he had no control over?

Even a cub becomes bold by following the lions that kill and roar in the jungle. Our environment and exposure have a lot to do with who we grow up to be.

I agree with these assessments. Often, other’s expectations and treatment have a marked difference in the attitudes and choices we make. Certainly we have control over what we do, but the influences of those around us cannot be discounted. Perhaps Cain may have been a difficult child no matter what, but the additional assumption and watchfulness of others could have easily been the extra push toward that expected outcome that he eventually fulfilled.

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