God is perfect: he cannot change, he cannot please or hurt. How so?

Use this forum to discuss the December 2020 Book of the month, "Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe" by Hilary L Hunt M.D.
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Re: God is perfect: he cannot change, he cannot please or hurt. How so?

Post by riyosha »

I think perfection is being just, unbiased and always making correct or at least best decisions. In this case, the inability to be pleased or hurts aids God to be perfect - if he is not emotionally affected by things, he will never have biases. That is why I believe that God cannot be pleased or hurt.
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Post by Maddie Atkinson »

Thea Frederick wrote: 01 Jan 2021, 22:31
Maddie Atkinson wrote: 31 Dec 2020, 07:33
Thea Frederick wrote: 30 Dec 2020, 19:19

So we can not please God? Then why would we obey His commands if he didn't care a thing about it either way? And what about righteous judgement? Is God not the just judge? And does not a just judge give to each according to their deserts?
Like any religion, that is just my belief and my opinion. I don't think He can be pleased, but not because He's bad, or unjust, but because what pleases God is subject to your beliefs. Some people might think that shooting up a gay bar is what God wants and what will please Him, but obviously that is not a good thing to do. I think that He does feel, but He loves us all, that is His feeling. If He can be pleased or hurt, then He is biased, and I don't think that one person can please God more than another, He loves us equally and without bias. I don't think we are judged on what we do with our lives, but rather the faith that we have in God. The people who use religion as an excuse to do bad things in God's name, do not have true faith, because if they did they would know not to do that. The Commandments are there as a guide for being a good person. It doesn't matter if you believe in God or not, murder is wrong, for example. That is not just obeying His commands, that is just common sense. But that is just my opinion and my belief.
So what makes murder bad? Don't get me wrong, I believe murder is bad, but that is because of my religion. But for what reason is murder bad if you take religion out of the picture?
Because it is taking a life. Religion or no religion, you do not ever get the right to take a persons life. That has nothing to do with religion, it's just common human decency. Nobody gets the right over someone else's life, no one gets to take it upon themselves to take a life, especially when there is no reason to do so. Even if there is a reason, killing should never ever be an option. I really don't care if religion is involved or not, murder is wrong and that's common sense.
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Post by Excel 2021 »

I think you have misunderstood this. God is biased really. If one follows his method and principles, irrespective of who or where you come from, you will obtain the stated result. That's why he does not change
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Post by Thea Frederick »

Maddie Atkinson wrote: 02 Jan 2021, 08:16
Thea Frederick wrote: 01 Jan 2021, 22:31
Maddie Atkinson wrote: 31 Dec 2020, 07:33

Like any religion, that is just my belief and my opinion. I don't think He can be pleased, but not because He's bad, or unjust, but because what pleases God is subject to your beliefs. Some people might think that shooting up a gay bar is what God wants and what will please Him, but obviously that is not a good thing to do. I think that He does feel, but He loves us all, that is His feeling. If He can be pleased or hurt, then He is biased, and I don't think that one person can please God more than another, He loves us equally and without bias. I don't think we are judged on what we do with our lives, but rather the faith that we have in God. The people who use religion as an excuse to do bad things in God's name, do not have true faith, because if they did they would know not to do that. The Commandments are there as a guide for being a good person. It doesn't matter if you believe in God or not, murder is wrong, for example. That is not just obeying His commands, that is just common sense. But that is just my opinion and my belief.
So what makes murder bad? Don't get me wrong, I believe murder is bad, but that is because of my religion. But for what reason is murder bad if you take religion out of the picture?
Because it is taking a life. Religion or no religion, you do not ever get the right to take a persons life. That has nothing to do with religion, it's just common human decency. Nobody gets the right over someone else's life, no one gets to take it upon themselves to take a life, especially when there is no reason to do so. Even if there is a reason, killing should never ever be an option. I really don't care if religion is involved or not, murder is wrong and that's common sense.
But why? Where does "human decency" come from? Where did we get this "right to life" and why should it be protected? If we are simply creatures of evolution then life would be a matter or survival of the fittest. Why wouldn't we kill and fight to work our way to the top?
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Post by Maddie Atkinson »

Thea Frederick wrote: 02 Jan 2021, 12:56
Maddie Atkinson wrote: 02 Jan 2021, 08:16
Thea Frederick wrote: 01 Jan 2021, 22:31

So what makes murder bad? Don't get me wrong, I believe murder is bad, but that is because of my religion. But for what reason is murder bad if you take religion out of the picture?
Because it is taking a life. Religion or no religion, you do not ever get the right to take a persons life. That has nothing to do with religion, it's just common human decency. Nobody gets the right over someone else's life, no one gets to take it upon themselves to take a life, especially when there is no reason to do so. Even if there is a reason, killing should never ever be an option. I really don't care if religion is involved or not, murder is wrong and that's common sense.
But why? Where does "human decency" come from? Where did we get this "right to life" and why should it be protected? If we are simply creatures of evolution then life would be a matter or survival of the fittest. Why wouldn't we kill and fight to work our way to the top?
I think all life should be given a chance, human or otherwise, however we are more evolved than other animals, we understand and value and appreciate the lives that we have. I am not saying that other animals don't, but they have the base instinct for survival of the fittest. Being more evolved, we have adapted to overcome the need to fight and kill to work our way to the top, we do that through our intelligence and we are rewarded success. We did once kill to fight our way to the top, but that was hundreds of thousands of years ago, we just don't need that anymore. We understand that all life has value and purpose, whether we are religious or not. Those who murder do not do it to fight their way to the top, but rather for self gain and more immediate gratification. Some people have psychological disorders that lead them to murder, but not all end up murdering. We are creatures of evolution but we have evolved away from the need to kill to survive. Personally, I think the world would be better off without humans on it, but it doesn't mean I believe it is okay to kill. Eventually we will go extinct, but for now we understand the value of life and that it should be protected if we wish to progress into a world that is a better place than it is now. I hope that makes sense?
"I decided a while ago not to deny myself the simpler pleasures of existence" - Augustus Waters (The Fault in Our Stars)
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Post by Gift Olubankole »

I think God is perfect because He is the beginning and the end. God does wonders and manifests in several ways but yet He is still God, the unchangeable God. 'God is not a man that he should lie', makes Him all the more perfect to me.
My definition of perfection is flawless, of no fault.
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Post by Gift Olubankole »

AnnieOgoo wrote: 11 Dec 2020, 10:41
Sou Hi wrote: 10 Dec 2020, 21:08 Hm, I think there are many issues in this aspect. First of all, which God are we talking about? As the author said, each Bible depicts God differently. And based on the books, each God will be either perfect or imperfect.

Secondly, since God is all-mighty, I agree it may be true that He can't be hurt, especially by humans. However, if He can't be pleased or can't change, does that mean He remains fixed towards everything? If yes, does that mean He is unbiased and will treat everyone equally? If so, why is it that some people claim they could hear His will, and the rest cannot? Shouldn't He either show himself to everyone or to no one? What about the cases of Noah, Lazarus, Abel, or his Apostles? Why did He choose those people and not the others?
You have left me with more questions than answers 😆.
First of all, I agree with you and the author that God is depicted differently in the Bible; the new testament God is a tad bit nicer than the old testament God (but of course the death of Christ is the most valid explanation for this 'change').
Now in response to your second paragraph, I beginning to think that God can change. Really. If not, how else do we explain the old testament God from the new testament God? Would it be that the old testament depiction of God was based on the understanding of the less informed guys back then? Or is the difference (the change) because of Christ's death? (Now I'm asking new questions 🤦🏻‍♀️.)
You also mentioned that if God is unbiased, why doesn't he reveal himself to everyone? Well I think God reveals Himself to those who believe and seek (hard enough). I also think God is unbiased because he sends rain and sun unto the good and the bad (this biblical statement, when meditated on refers to more than the rain and the sun).
Finally, I'll say it once again, I think God is perfect because He is God. And a complete understanding of God is impossible; we just have to work by faith. 😊
To answer your question about the 'change' of the God of the old testament to that of the new testament. There is no change actually. The Bible made us know that God has a lot of characteristics. God is God. Just like how as humans we have several behaviours and our own attributes, I believe this is possible because we have been made in the image of the Father. Moreso, in Proverbs 15:11- The Lord knows everything... Also, in Job 23:13- But God never changes... :)
Christ's death became a pathway for us to communicate with God through His Son. God never changes, He just does new things in new ways. Remember that God is love, but He is also the cloud of fire at night (exodus), He is the Judge, The consuming fire and so on. I hope I have been able to answer your question :wink:
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Post by Thea Frederick »

Maddie Atkinson wrote: 02 Jan 2021, 13:08
Thea Frederick wrote: 02 Jan 2021, 12:56
Maddie Atkinson wrote: 02 Jan 2021, 08:16

Because it is taking a life. Religion or no religion, you do not ever get the right to take a persons life. That has nothing to do with religion, it's just common human decency. Nobody gets the right over someone else's life, no one gets to take it upon themselves to take a life, especially when there is no reason to do so. Even if there is a reason, killing should never ever be an option. I really don't care if religion is involved or not, murder is wrong and that's common sense.
But why? Where does "human decency" come from? Where did we get this "right to life" and why should it be protected? If we are simply creatures of evolution then life would be a matter or survival of the fittest. Why wouldn't we kill and fight to work our way to the top?
I think all life should be given a chance, human or otherwise, however we are more evolved than other animals, we understand and value and appreciate the lives that we have. I am not saying that other animals don't, but they have the base instinct for survival of the fittest. Being more evolved, we have adapted to overcome the need to fight and kill to work our way to the top, we do that through our intelligence and we are rewarded success. We did once kill to fight our way to the top, but that was hundreds of thousands of years ago, we just don't need that anymore. We understand that all life has value and purpose, whether we are religious or not. Those who murder do not do it to fight their way to the top, but rather for self gain and more immediate gratification. Some people have psychological disorders that lead them to murder, but not all end up murdering. We are creatures of evolution but we have evolved away from the need to kill to survive. Personally, I think the world would be better off without humans on it, but it doesn't mean I believe it is okay to kill. Eventually we will go extinct, but for now we understand the value of life and that it should be protected if we wish to progress into a world that is a better place than it is now. I hope that makes sense?
Yes, it does make sense. And, I must say, you defended your position much better than I have heard it defended before!
Okay, so your argument definitely conveys why human interaction is no longer survival of the fittest from an evolutionist's point of view. But one thing that confuses me with the evolutionist's perspective is why more creatures haven't evolved further? Why haven't we evolved into some different type of creature than what we were hundreds of years ago?
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Post by Nichole Kurns »

God is perfect in that he is without sin or flaw. His will cannot be changed by our actions. I believe that our actions can please and/or hurt God.
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Post by Maddie Atkinson »

Thea Frederick wrote: 04 Jan 2021, 11:44
Maddie Atkinson wrote: 02 Jan 2021, 13:08
Thea Frederick wrote: 02 Jan 2021, 12:56

But why? Where does "human decency" come from? Where did we get this "right to life" and why should it be protected? If we are simply creatures of evolution then life would be a matter or survival of the fittest. Why wouldn't we kill and fight to work our way to the top?
I think all life should be given a chance, human or otherwise, however we are more evolved than other animals, we understand and value and appreciate the lives that we have. I am not saying that other animals don't, but they have the base instinct for survival of the fittest. Being more evolved, we have adapted to overcome the need to fight and kill to work our way to the top, we do that through our intelligence and we are rewarded success. We did once kill to fight our way to the top, but that was hundreds of thousands of years ago, we just don't need that anymore. We understand that all life has value and purpose, whether we are religious or not. Those who murder do not do it to fight their way to the top, but rather for self gain and more immediate gratification. Some people have psychological disorders that lead them to murder, but not all end up murdering. We are creatures of evolution but we have evolved away from the need to kill to survive. Personally, I think the world would be better off without humans on it, but it doesn't mean I believe it is okay to kill. Eventually we will go extinct, but for now we understand the value of life and that it should be protected if we wish to progress into a world that is a better place than it is now. I hope that makes sense?
Yes, it does make sense. And, I must say, you defended your position much better than I have heard it defended before!
Okay, so your argument definitely conveys why human interaction is no longer survival of the fittest from an evolutionist's point of view. But one thing that confuses me with the evolutionist's perspective is why more creatures haven't evolved further? Why haven't we evolved into some different type of creature than what we were hundreds of years ago?
Thank you, I took sociology at school, can you tell? :) That is a very good question, I am not sure I am the best person to ask, science is not my strong point! But to the best of my knowledge, I would say it's because our environment hasn't changed enough for us to evolve. In some ways you could say we have evolved, with our intelligence to build houses, farm rather than hunt etc. which the original homo sapians did not do, so maybe we have evolved more psychologically. If you look at some isolated islands, such as North Sentinel, the people who live there are still very primal due to their isolation from the mainland and their hostility towards outsiders. Obviously not all isolated islands are like this, but isolation from places that have the means to develop and adapt can lead to slower evolution and a different type of adaption. Not all humans are the same, some are more evolved than others. So I guess we may not be different creatures, but we have all adapted a lot further than the original humans!
"I decided a while ago not to deny myself the simpler pleasures of existence" - Augustus Waters (The Fault in Our Stars)
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Post by Veraok »

Well, I'll say God is perfect because he is a supernatural being . Yes God does not do anything to hurt or please anything or anyone because he created everyone and everything and he is originator of perfection. He has said in his word be ye holy even as I am holy.
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Post by Praise GodWord »

God is perfect in character. God can not hurt. He is love. We hurt. We interpret most of our experiences as painful because of our frail nature. Our pain is not coming from God. We should not think or interpret God as the cause.
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Post by Thea Frederick »

Maddie Atkinson wrote: 04 Jan 2021, 14:06
Thea Frederick wrote: 04 Jan 2021, 11:44
Maddie Atkinson wrote: 02 Jan 2021, 13:08

I think all life should be given a chance, human or otherwise, however we are more evolved than other animals, we understand and value and appreciate the lives that we have. I am not saying that other animals don't, but they have the base instinct for survival of the fittest. Being more evolved, we have adapted to overcome the need to fight and kill to work our way to the top, we do that through our intelligence and we are rewarded success. We did once kill to fight our way to the top, but that was hundreds of thousands of years ago, we just don't need that anymore. We understand that all life has value and purpose, whether we are religious or not. Those who murder do not do it to fight their way to the top, but rather for self gain and more immediate gratification. Some people have psychological disorders that lead them to murder, but not all end up murdering. We are creatures of evolution but we have evolved away from the need to kill to survive. Personally, I think the world would be better off without humans on it, but it doesn't mean I believe it is okay to kill. Eventually we will go extinct, but for now we understand the value of life and that it should be protected if we wish to progress into a world that is a better place than it is now. I hope that makes sense?
Yes, it does make sense. And, I must say, you defended your position much better than I have heard it defended before!
Okay, so your argument definitely conveys why human interaction is no longer survival of the fittest from an evolutionist's point of view. But one thing that confuses me with the evolutionist's perspective is why more creatures haven't evolved further? Why haven't we evolved into some different type of creature than what we were hundreds of years ago?
Thank you, I took sociology at school, can you tell? :) That is a very good question, I am not sure I am the best person to ask, science is not my strong point! But to the best of my knowledge, I would say it's because our environment hasn't changed enough for us to evolve. In some ways you could say we have evolved, with our intelligence to build houses, farm rather than hunt etc. which the original homo sapians did not do, so maybe we have evolved more psychologically. If you look at some isolated islands, such as North Sentinel, the people who live there are still very primal due to their isolation from the mainland and their hostility towards outsiders. Obviously not all isolated islands are like this, but isolation from places that have the means to develop and adapt can lead to slower evolution and a different type of adaption. Not all humans are the same, some are more evolved than others. So I guess we may not be different creatures, but we have all adapted a lot further than the original humans!
Alright, I see your argument. Thanks for the explanation, it helps me understand where evolutionist's are coming from :-)
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Post by Chizioboli »

God is perfect because He is more of a model against which man was made, required to live like and be like. The author's explanation on how God is perfect because he cannot change is right, however it depends on if the change is negative or positive. Let me explain what I mean. Moving a bit away from religion, in a layman's understanding, if an item is termed perfect, modifying or introducing changes to it moves it away from perfect. This is because there is a change in the defined model of its perfection. What I am saying in reference to this concept is that if God changes say from being clean to dirty, He is no longer perfect. There is a dent in His perfection. On the other hand, I do not quite agree with the author's assumption
that God is perfect because he does not please or hurt. Here's why. He is a loving Father and if you do not please Him, how does he bless you? When the Ten Commandment in the old testament says, we should not have no other God except Him, it means doing so with hurt him. So placing Him being pleased or hurt as a yardstick for God's perfection is in no way related. They are more like two parallel lines that would never meet. His perfect nature actually encompasses these.
Having said this, let me expatiate on perfection. Perfection, in my understanding is simply the existence of no errors or dent in a defined model. God is a model for humans as such He is perfect in all angles.
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Post by Kelebogile Mbangi »

I disagree with the author's viewpoint on the matter. Before God caused the flood in Noah's day, the bible states that He felt hurt over how people in Noah's day were inclined to do what is bad. I am of the firm believe that our actions can affect how God feels because he cares about us, he is not unfeeling. As for perfection, I believe it is relative to what is being described.
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