Are Hunt's views on the Church universal?

Use this forum to discuss the December 2020 Book of the month, "Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe" by Hilary L Hunt M.D.
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Re: Are Hunt's views on the Church universal?

Post by Maddie Atkinson »

cd20 wrote: 21 Dec 2020, 10:44 The word homosexual first appeared in the Revised Standard Version in 1946 (not 48 sorry!). It was mistranslated from the German word for boy, which can be found in the original Martin Luthor Bible (different denomination or not, it's still the Bible). The Germans even created the word homosexual in the 1800s, so if that was the correct translation of the Bible it would have appeared in the Bible back then. If you look back at even the old Greek versions they use the word 'arsenokoitai', the word translated means boy. It's quite a well known fact in the LGBT community. I'll put a link in this so you can see an article on it, it's quite interesting! :)

I know you're not trying to be argumentative, neither am I, but I personally I really don't believe that God would want people to be prohibited from loving who they want, especially if we were made in His image. Why would He make people gay if He didn't like the gays? Why would he make it sinful if He loves us all? I just don't think He has that agenda, I think He has more important things to do than send the gays to Hell! The American's did when they paid for it to be translated that way to fit their homophobic views! Again, not trying to start an argument, but I am curious to know why you think it is a sin to have a relationship with the same sex and act on those impulses which are entirely natural and can't be helped?
I did read the article, and you are right, it was interesting. I still look to other verses in the Bible that speak against it. I had two articles that I was going to attach to support my views, but this site is not letting me do it. Not sure how you got past it, but I can't.
[/quote]
You have to press the button that looks like a chain link at the top to attach a URL. May I ask why you think a Bible mistranslated is something to support? I don't mean any offense, I just don't understand why you think it is wrong to love you who you love? A person's human rights are not an opinion. If God does not support the gays then why did He create them? I also implore you to listen to Bo Burnham's 'From God's Perspective'. It is comedy and he does use dark humour, it is not meant to be taken offensively but it does raise some good points! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxc20saM8DA

The Bible was written by men, not God Himself. I really don't think He said anything about it, it was the men who wrote it saying that to fit with the social values at the time, and even then it was more acceptable when they were alive. I know this sounds angry, but I am sure you understand how frustrating it is for people like me who are told not to live a certain way by straight people, when it is none of your f**king business what we do, it doesn't harm you. Again, I am not trying to attack you, I swear I'm not, I am just trying to show you how hurtful it is when I hear from other people telling me I'm going to hell, using the same arguments that you are, because it was 'written in the Bible' even when it wasn't. I am just so frustrated :cry:
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Post by cd20 »

This is why I said to agree to disagree. I believe that the Bible is God's inspired Word, while men wrote it, He told them what to write. I don't see the chain looking thing to attach links, but God created man and woman in His image, and he designed relationships to be between men and women, to recreate. That is in Genesis. I am sorry that you are frustrated, but I was not in any way attacking you or others. I am not judging you or anyone else, that is not my job. I have never told anyone they are going to hell, God knows the hearts of people, I don't. I also haven't told someone not to love someone else. I do not have to agree with people being gay or straight or whatever. I would rather someone admit they are gay, than get married and two kids later tell their spouse they are gay (my brother-in-law did that to my sister), he hurt her and my nephews deeply. I don't think my ex-brother-in-law is a bad person, but I don't agree with the way he handled it. I have never told him he is going to hell. And, I found the chain thing,but it tells me I can't put url links in the post :(
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Post by Maddie Atkinson »

cd20 wrote: 21 Dec 2020, 19:18 This is why I said to agree to disagree. I believe that the Bible is God's inspired Word, while men wrote it, He told them what to write. I don't see the chain looking thing to attach links, but God created man and woman in His image, and he designed relationships to be between men and women, to recreate. That is in Genesis. I am sorry that you are frustrated, but I was not in any way attacking you or others. I am not judging you or anyone else, that is not my job. I have never told anyone they are going to hell, God knows the hearts of people, I don't. I also haven't told someone not to love someone else. I do not have to agree with people being gay or straight or whatever. I would rather someone admit they are gay, than get married and two kids later tell their spouse they are gay (my brother-in-law did that to my sister), he hurt her and my nephews deeply. I don't think my ex-brother-in-law is a bad person, but I don't agree with the way he handled it. I have never told him he is going to hell. And, I found the chain thing,but it tells me I can't put url links in the post :(
I know that you haven't said that, but other people use the same quotes, the same verses that you have to hurt other people. God did create man and woman, and He does not say anything about gay relationships, that it true, but He also doesn't say anything against it. You cannot prove that he didn't anymore than I can prove that He did. I am sorry that your sister and your nephews were hurt, I truly am, I don't now the details about what happened so maybe he could have handled it better. Some people just don't realise that they are gay until later on in their life due to internalised homophobia. They may think that they are happy and married into to a hetero relationship and then realise that it is not how they feel most comfortable. For some people, it takes experiences like that to understand their sexuality. I am sure your brother in law did not get married with the intent of coming out as gay and leaving your sister, trust me, it was probably painful for him too. Being gay is not an option, or a lifestyle, it is entirely natural and you can't disagree with human nature, or animal nature, as it has been seen in over 300 species. I don't think God made people gay and then said "now write about how I hate them, for the drama". People have died because of those mistranslations. Genesis says nothing about gay people, and just in case you're thinking about Soddom and Gomorrah, the crime there was rape, not homosexuality. And ahhhh man I'm sorry, maybe just copy and paste the url. It won't turn it into a link, but I can copy it into my search bar :)
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Post by Ahbed Nadir »

I don't think his views on the church are universal . Hunt is a Catholic and as such is writing based off of his experiences in the Catholic church. As such it doesnt really speak for all the other aspects of the church
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Post by Ahbed Nadir »

cd20 wrote: 14 Dec 2020, 08:45 I think the problem with "church" is that it is full of sinners and we don't always get it right. Jesus said hate the sin, but love the sinner. I think one of the points that Hunt makes is that the Catholic Church was too legalistic, more about the rules than actually being a Christ follower. I don't think that churches, to use your example, should tell people they can't be gay, you are right when you say that some are born that way, but the sin is acting on the "gay" impulses, not actually being gay, if that makes sense. I think the problem is that too many people do tend to be legalistic, but religion is not about rules, it is about a relationship with Christ.
This statement explains my views perfectly. I wish all our leaders in the church could see it this way. However most of them are only interested in the letter not the actual act. A relationship with Christ is most important.
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Post by Ldpuff »

Maddie Atkinson wrote: 20 Dec 2020, 11:46
Ldpuff wrote: 20 Dec 2020, 08:28 I believe he is speaking to the Catholic faith. Personally, my church has never made me feel guilty or subservient for sinning. That is the whole point of church, to be able to come no matter how broken you are and be welcomed in as family. Seems to me as if the author needed to expand his church experience.
I think it also depends on the community you grew up in. It seems he was brought up in a community and a church that were very devout, and very devout Catholics are very much 'you will burn in the fiery pits of hell for you were born into sin'. It is hard to expand out into other communities when the one you grew up in is all you have ever known.
I totally agree, if it is all you ever know, it is hard to find other experiences. I see it as a real shame honestly.
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Post by Lydia Matson »

cd20 wrote: 14 Dec 2020, 08:45 I think the problem with "church" is that it is full of sinners and we don't always get it right. Jesus said hate the sin, but love the sinner. I think one of the points that Hunt makes is that the Catholic Church was too legalistic, more about the rules than actually being a Christ follower. I don't think that churches, to use your example, should tell people they can't be gay, you are right when you say that some are born that way, but the sin is acting on the "gay" impulses, not actually being gay, if that makes sense. I think the problem is that too many people do tend to be legalistic, but religion is not about rules, it is about a relationship with Christ.
I agree with this view on the subject, being too legalistic is definitely one of the main faults of a lot of churches and denominations.
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Post by 63tty »

I think he is mostly discussing what people think, that the church wants to make us feel bad about. Yes, the church does disapprove of sin, and some deeds but I've never felt like it was directed towards me. If anything, my church is as free as they come.
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Post by Thea Frederick »

Maddie Atkinson wrote: 14 Dec 2020, 11:58
cd20 wrote: 14 Dec 2020, 08:45 I think the problem with "church" is that it is full of sinners and we don't always get it right. Jesus said hate the sin, but love the sinner. I think one of the points that Hunt makes is that the Catholic Church was too legalistic, more about the rules than actually being a Christ follower. I don't think that churches, to use your example, should tell people they can't be gay, you are right when you say that some are born that way, but the sin is acting on the "gay" impulses, not actually being gay, if that makes sense. I think the problem is that too many people do tend to be legalistic, but religion is not about rules, it is about a relationship with Christ.
You're right about religion not being about rules, and, in terms of Christianity it is about a relationship with Christ. Acting on sinful impulses is what makes it become a sin, however you're wrong when it comes to being gay. It's not an impulse anymore than it is for straight people. It isn't even written in the Bible anywhere. I think as long as you're true to Christ and yourself, you should be fine. Follow in Christ, not necessarily the rules set out for you by the Church.
Actually, it is addressed in the Bible.

Leviticus 20:13 ESV
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

You say to follow in Christ, not necessarily the rules set out for you by the Church. But what about our sinfulness? We are all susceptible to sin and we are all flawed, so what makes us think we have the wisdom and piety to set our own path in life? What makes us believe we have the wisdom to interpret scriptures as we please? Of course, there is grace in the church. At least in the Eastern Orthodox Christian church there is grace and it does not say "follow the rules or you are damned." I don't know about the Catholic church, but perhaps Hunt gives you an idea of that. But if we set out to interpret as we please we will find ourselves in hot water very quickly. At that point we are definitely getting too big for our britches. We need to have bishops and priests and holy, prayerful men to direct us. They are also flawed but if they are working together and praying together and there for each other to correct when one goes astray then things are going to be interpreted with much more wisdom.
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Post by Maddie Atkinson »

Thea Frederick wrote: 30 Dec 2020, 15:34
Maddie Atkinson wrote: 14 Dec 2020, 11:58
cd20 wrote: 14 Dec 2020, 08:45 I think the problem with "church" is that it is full of sinners and we don't always get it right. Jesus said hate the sin, but love the sinner. I think one of the points that Hunt makes is that the Catholic Church was too legalistic, more about the rules than actually being a Christ follower. I don't think that churches, to use your example, should tell people they can't be gay, you are right when you say that some are born that way, but the sin is acting on the "gay" impulses, not actually being gay, if that makes sense. I think the problem is that too many people do tend to be legalistic, but religion is not about rules, it is about a relationship with Christ.
You're right about religion not being about rules, and, in terms of Christianity it is about a relationship with Christ. Acting on sinful impulses is what makes it become a sin, however you're wrong when it comes to being gay. It's not an impulse anymore than it is for straight people. It isn't even written in the Bible anywhere. I think as long as you're true to Christ and yourself, you should be fine. Follow in Christ, not necessarily the rules set out for you by the Church.
Actually, it is addressed in the Bible.

Leviticus 20:13 ESV
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

You say to follow in Christ, not necessarily the rules set out for you by the Church. But what about our sinfulness? We are all susceptible to sin and we are all flawed, so what makes us think we have the wisdom and piety to set our own path in life? What makes us believe we have the wisdom to interpret scriptures as we please? Of course, there is grace in the church. At least in the Eastern Orthodox Christian church there is grace and it does not say "follow the rules or you are damned." I don't know about the Catholic church, but perhaps Hunt gives you an idea of that. But if we set out to interpret as we please we will find ourselves in hot water very quickly. At that point we are definitely getting too big for our britches. We need to have bishops and priests and holy, prayerful men to direct us. They are also flawed but if they are working together and praying together and there for each other to correct when one goes astray then things are going to be interpreted with much more wisdom.
Actually, it's not. That was a mistranslation. The word "homosexual" didn't even exist until the late 1800s, and if that was the correct translation of the Bible it would have appeared in it immediately. But it didn't, because it is not the correct translation. The word that appears in the original translations of the Bible means "boy" not man. The passages were about paedophilia, not homosexuality, but it was mistranslated on purpose. The USA paid for it to be mistranslated which was then put in the RSV of the Bible and then every other copy of the Bible. I am NOT committing a sin by being gay, the way that God made me.

What makes us think that Bishops, priests etc. have the piety to tell us what to do? Especially when they have created a set of rules for us to follow which do nothing more than try to control us. You are right that they are not perfect, so why should I trust them to tell me what to do with my life? They have misinterpreted the Bible for their own gain, how is that wisdom? Granted not all of them have, but enough for me not to trust them. I believe in God, but I set my own path.
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Post by hlhunt33 »

Maybe a quick definition will help. Love is acceptance. Human love is imperfect because we always expect something in return (conditional love). God is Perfect Love which means 'acceptance without conditions'. Sexuality is no different than any other natural phenomenon---all fall nicely on a bell-shaped distribution curve. If you pulled every hair from your scalp and measured the length of each, you would find that most of them fit into the % 66,7 range, while the rest would be distributed equally from the shortest on one side to the longest on the other side. So it is with sexuality. Hilary Hunt
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Post by Thea Frederick »

Maddie Atkinson wrote: 31 Dec 2020, 07:25
Thea Frederick wrote: 30 Dec 2020, 15:34
Maddie Atkinson wrote: 14 Dec 2020, 11:58

You're right about religion not being about rules, and, in terms of Christianity it is about a relationship with Christ. Acting on sinful impulses is what makes it become a sin, however you're wrong when it comes to being gay. It's not an impulse anymore than it is for straight people. It isn't even written in the Bible anywhere. I think as long as you're true to Christ and yourself, you should be fine. Follow in Christ, not necessarily the rules set out for you by the Church.
Actually, it is addressed in the Bible.

Leviticus 20:13 ESV
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

You say to follow in Christ, not necessarily the rules set out for you by the Church. But what about our sinfulness? We are all susceptible to sin and we are all flawed, so what makes us think we have the wisdom and piety to set our own path in life? What makes us believe we have the wisdom to interpret scriptures as we please? Of course, there is grace in the church. At least in the Eastern Orthodox Christian church there is grace and it does not say "follow the rules or you are damned." I don't know about the Catholic church, but perhaps Hunt gives you an idea of that. But if we set out to interpret as we please we will find ourselves in hot water very quickly. At that point we are definitely getting too big for our britches. We need to have bishops and priests and holy, prayerful men to direct us. They are also flawed but if they are working together and praying together and there for each other to correct when one goes astray then things are going to be interpreted with much more wisdom.
Actually, it's not. That was a mistranslation. The word "homosexual" didn't even exist until the late 1800s, and if that was the correct translation of the Bible it would have appeared in it immediately. But it didn't, because it is not the correct translation. The word that appears in the original translations of the Bible means "boy" not man. The passages were about paedophilia, not homosexuality, but it was mistranslated on purpose. The USA paid for it to be mistranslated which was then put in the RSV of the Bible and then every other copy of the Bible. I am NOT committing a sin by being gay, the way that God made me.

What makes us think that Bishops, priests etc. have the piety to tell us what to do? Especially when they have created a set of rules for us to follow which do nothing more than try to control us. You are right that they are not perfect, so why should I trust them to tell me what to do with my life? They have misinterpreted the Bible for their own gain, how is that wisdom? Granted not all of them have, but enough for me not to trust them. I believe in God, but I set my own path.
I disagree about the mistranslation, but that is okay. We don't have to agree.

They aren't perfect, but, like I said, they are working together and PRAYING. They dedicate their lives to the service of God and his people and they keep each other in line. That is why the Eastern Orthodox Church does not believe in the infallibility of the pope. He is a man and also likely to sin. In the Eastern Orthodox Church there is a synod of bishops so that when one is making a mistake the others can counsel against it.
Do you really believe that we each have the wisdom to determine the meaning behind all of God's words? I certainly don't have that wisdom. I don't pray and seek God's will nearly enough to know his Truth when it confronts me.
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Post by Laurina Michael Olowoniran »

I think the author's opinion was largely affected by his Catholic Background.

And I would love to say that sin is sin, there's no other name for it. You know, it's very difficult explaining certain things to people who are not ready to understand or let go of their own beliefs. Churches are there to help sinners become better and the method is not by making them feel guilty but by showing them the Love of Jesus Christ.

Many Christians this days don't go back to ask God what he feels about anything, they just follow the predominant view of the society. And guess what, the devil is the god of this world and he can push anything to become popular.
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Post by Maddie Atkinson »

Thea Frederick wrote: 01 Jan 2021, 22:43
Maddie Atkinson wrote: 31 Dec 2020, 07:25
Thea Frederick wrote: 30 Dec 2020, 15:34

Actually, it is addressed in the Bible.

Leviticus 20:13 ESV
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

You say to follow in Christ, not necessarily the rules set out for you by the Church. But what about our sinfulness? We are all susceptible to sin and we are all flawed, so what makes us think we have the wisdom and piety to set our own path in life? What makes us believe we have the wisdom to interpret scriptures as we please? Of course, there is grace in the church. At least in the Eastern Orthodox Christian church there is grace and it does not say "follow the rules or you are damned." I don't know about the Catholic church, but perhaps Hunt gives you an idea of that. But if we set out to interpret as we please we will find ourselves in hot water very quickly. At that point we are definitely getting too big for our britches. We need to have bishops and priests and holy, prayerful men to direct us. They are also flawed but if they are working together and praying together and there for each other to correct when one goes astray then things are going to be interpreted with much more wisdom.
Actually, it's not. That was a mistranslation. The word "homosexual" didn't even exist until the late 1800s, and if that was the correct translation of the Bible it would have appeared in it immediately. But it didn't, because it is not the correct translation. The word that appears in the original translations of the Bible means "boy" not man. The passages were about paedophilia, not homosexuality, but it was mistranslated on purpose. The USA paid for it to be mistranslated which was then put in the RSV of the Bible and then every other copy of the Bible. I am NOT committing a sin by being gay, the way that God made me.

What makes us think that Bishops, priests etc. have the piety to tell us what to do? Especially when they have created a set of rules for us to follow which do nothing more than try to control us. You are right that they are not perfect, so why should I trust them to tell me what to do with my life? They have misinterpreted the Bible for their own gain, how is that wisdom? Granted not all of them have, but enough for me not to trust them. I believe in God, but I set my own path.
I disagree about the mistranslation, but that is okay. We don't have to agree.

They aren't perfect, but, like I said, they are working together and PRAYING. They dedicate their lives to the service of God and his people and they keep each other in line. That is why the Eastern Orthodox Church does not believe in the infallibility of the pope. He is a man and also likely to sin. In the Eastern Orthodox Church there is a synod of bishops so that when one is making a mistake the others can counsel against it.
Do you really believe that we each have the wisdom to determine the meaning behind all of God's words? I certainly don't have that wisdom. I don't pray and seek God's will nearly enough to know his Truth when it confronts me.
You don't have to agree or disagree, but it is what happened, it's not an opinion it's a fact. Do you really believe that God wants everyone to love each other, but draws the line at same sex? It doesn't affect Him, or anyone else besides the people it involves and it isn't anyone's business but theirs. Also, religion or not, I don't think anyone gets to decide that some people deserve more human rights than another. I am gay and that is not a sin. That mistranslation has led to more deaths than you could possibly imagine because people have believed in it so whole heartedly, or have used it to support their own agenda that they thought it was their right to kill people just for who they love.

I personally believe that I have the right to make my own choices, and I shouldn't be told by someone interpreting the Bible what path I should take, because that is their interpretation of the Bible. What makes a priest or bishop more wise than me when it comes to interpreting the Bible? I think all of us have the wisdom to determine God's word because we all have different morals and different values, so God's word means a different thing to each person. We shouldn't have to follow one path just because someone told us what their opinion on God's word was!
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Post by Excel 2021 »

I don't think anyone really has a universally acceptable view or opinion of the Bible, save God himself. Having said that, there are elements in this book that I quite agree with. But at the same time, I strongly disagree with others.
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