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I was personally struck by a vast difference between Berrah's earlier chapters, in which women were rarely mentioned and when mentioned, seemed more of an afterthought. I could understand a reluctance to dwell on memories of his first wife, but I thought that young Ghoulem Berrah did not value women's part in political matters unless they happened to be married to influential men.

I found it a striking difference how, in chapter three, Berrah and Dr. Abdelkrim El Khatib decided that "Antionette's place was not in Tetouan," despite his knowledge of her bravery in fighting extradition, but much later, in chapter thirteen, Berrah praises the women of South Africa who fought against the Apartheid and reflected on the women of Algeria who were fighters, writing his praise and respect for them.

Do you agree or disagree? If you agree, do you see other instances of a change in his view? If you disagree, what parts of the earlier chapters should be considered?

I agreed with you completely. I am guessing that as he aged he grew to respect women more. Maybe the many different women he met along the way, and his multiple wives, changed his perspective. Or maybe he just began to notice the women’s accomplishments more.

Jenniferg_1105 wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 20:08 I agreed with you completely. I am guessing that as he aged he grew to respect women more. Maybe the many different women he met along the way, and his multiple wives, changed his perspective. Or maybe he just began to notice the women’s accomplishments more.

Well said. I definitely didn't see it as a negative. It was endearing that he clearly grew up in an environment where women's place was so strictly defined, yet as he interacted with more strong women and experienced other cultures, his own views and values seemed to shift. We can't help how we were raised, but as adults, those who overcome their engrained bias and shift their perspectives accordingly show great empathy and intelligence.

I think he demonstrates how people and their opinions can change dramatically. But also you have to admire his honesty in his writing as he does not write what would please the reader in this case.

I unquestionably didn't consider it to be negative. It was charming that he plainly experienced childhood in a climate where ladies' place was so carefully characterized, yet as he cooperated with more resilient ladies and experienced different societies, his own perspectives and qualities appeared to move. We can't help how we were raised, yet as grown-ups, the individuals who defeat their ingrained predisposition and move their points of view appropriately show incredible sympathy and insight.

In the earlier chapters, like you said, I think most of the reluctance comes from him not wanting to discuss his first wife. But I do think that it also come from a failure to realise that there should never have been a power dynamic where men were in power, since he was young and had been raised to never question it. However, when he travels and slowly becomes more worldly and wise, he becomes a more egalitarian person and he can see, more clearly, how women contribute. Again, part of this comes from his immense love and respect for his new wife, but part of it was just growing up.

LeighBee wrote: ↑11 Feb 2021, 19:26 I was personally struck by a vast difference between Berrah's earlier chapters, in which women were rarely mentioned and when mentioned, seemed more of an afterthought. I could understand a reluctance to dwell on memories of his first wife, but I thought that young Ghoulem Berrah did not value women's part in political matters unless they happened to be married to influential men.

I found it a striking difference how, in chapter three, Berrah and Dr. Abdelkrim El Khatib decided that "Antionette's place was not in Tetouan," despite his knowledge of her bravery in fighting extradition, but much later, in chapter thirteen, Berrah praises the women of South Africa who fought against the Apartheid and reflected on the women of Algeria who were fighters, writing his praise and respect for them.

Do you agree or disagree? If you agree, do you see other instances of a change in his view? If you disagree, what parts of the earlier chapters should be considered?

We have to take into consideration that people change, and that takes time. Unfortunately, we are influenced by our background and education, and the process of adapting to the changes in society takes a lot of open-mindedness. He did change his views, and that showed a lot of maturity. However, we should not judge him too harsh for his initial opinions.

Oh, it was all so confusing. It was all inconsistent, to the point where it was difficult for me to point where he stands. At that part where he visited in China, it pissed me off when he said that women's place belong at home where they should be good mothers to children. (It might be a misunderstanding, I'm not sure.) But then he salutes the women who joined the armed struggle and he wasn't too upset when his wife didn't get pregnant (at least, not on the book).

LeighBee wrote: ↑17 Feb 2021, 12:25 Well said. I definitely didn't see it as a negative. It was endearing that he clearly grew up in an environment where women's place was so strictly defined, yet as he interacted with more strong women and experienced other cultures, his own views and values seemed to shift. We can't help how we were raised, but as adults, those who overcome their engrained bias and shift their perspectives accordingly show great empathy and intelligence.

I didn't feel like there was a "growing up" that happened. Probably because it wasn't acknowledged and there was no accountability, an admission that his previous views were wrong. There was only a clear difference between statements across the books; it didn't feel endearing, it was confusing.

WADonnelly wrote: ↑17 Feb 2021, 15:43 I think he demonstrates how people and their opinions can change dramatically. But also you have to admire his honesty in his writing as he does not write what would please the reader in this case.

Indeed. I just wish that it was explicitly mentioned, that he admitted it openly that he had sexist views before. Anyway, I guess I can agree that he was honest, but I'm not sure that he wrote it thinking that readers wouldn't agree with it. For all we know, he might be brave to write it down because he thought people would approve of it. Who knows?

Lalit_kendre14 wrote: ↑19 Feb 2021, 11:18 I unquestionably didn't consider it to be negative. It was charming that he plainly experienced childhood in a climate where ladies' place was so carefully characterized, yet as he cooperated with more resilient ladies and experienced different societies, his own perspectives and qualities appeared to move. We can't help how we were raised, yet as grown-ups, the individuals who defeat their ingrained predisposition and move their points of view appropriately show incredible sympathy and insight.

That's how the world should operate. However, his growth seems lacking to me. I didn't feel like he grew and changed his views. He just had a statement in the earlier chapter and then had a different one in the middle and end. It was confusing. I wish he addressed it directly.

HDFC Head Girl wrote: ↑20 Feb 2021, 09:03 In the earlier chapters, like you said, I think most of the reluctance comes from him not wanting to discuss his first wife. But I do think that it also come from a failure to realise that there should never have been a power dynamic where men were in power, since he was young and had been raised to never question it. However, when he travels and slowly becomes more worldly and wise, he becomes a more egalitarian person and he can see, more clearly, how women contribute. Again, part of this comes from his immense love and respect for his new wife, but part of it was just growing up.

What gave you the sense that he was being reluctant in discussing his then-wife? When he visited China to meet with other activists, he just simply said that women are supposed to be mothers and mothers only, because it's their duty to make sure the children grow up right. At least, that's what I got from it. And even then, he was already in the presence of a lot of women activists. So I never understood why he would say that, in the front of another women activist too, no less.

What gave you the sense that he was being reluctant in discussing his then-wife? When he visited China to meet with other activists, he just simply said that women are supposed to be mothers and mothers only, because it's their duty to make sure the children grow up right. At least, that's what I got from it. And even then, he was already in the presence of a lot of women activists. So I never understood why he would say that, in the front of another women activist too, no less.
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I agree with you - this was actually one of the examples I was thinking about when I posted this discussion question.

When I read about his visit to China, I did get the same sense when I read that statement that he was basically saying women's place is in the home; however, I could not tell if he was making this as a statement about China's culture or his own values. What I finally decided, as you pointed out, was that since his audience included accomplished women, I read this as simply his observations of China. I thought he was trying to explain that in China when he visited, he observed this as one of their cultural values.

I think this is just an example of the effect of growth and exposure on the mind. As he advanced and related with more resilient women, he began to appreciate and acknowledge the role of women in politics.

I believe that his difference of women between the earlier chapters and the later chapters is that it shows he has grown as a person. Viewed he held in the past he now don't hold because he has grown consciously as person.