Do you think Gary should plead guilty in court?
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Re: Do you think Gary should plead guilty in court?
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- yomide
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Protecting his dignity, that's another perspective. In every way, I can only agree with you. Assuming he did plead guilty, Gary would not only be a murderer or monster, he would become the stuff of nightmare. A reason to stay out of relationships because every one would say 'what if my boyfriend suddenly stabs me?' So pleading not guilty does not only seem fair, it is the best decision I can think of.Anna Bookowski wrote: ↑29 Jul 2021, 05:43Yes, I do agree with that. I also came to the conclusion that if he would plead guilty, they would look at him as he was a monster, a murderer. Taking the circumstances, it wouldn't make much sense anymore. The only thing he could do to protect himself from being seen as a criminal, was to plead not guilty. Even though the chances of being let free were close to zero. It would be more like a way to protect his dignity.LissetheH wrote: ↑28 Jul 2021, 10:40 I think Gary should not plead guilty in court, why? Because although he commited the crime, he is unable to recall it due to a "fantastical" experience. Without that happening, he would never kill his "soulmate". And pleading guilty in behalf of Michelle´s family? No. Although it could give them peace, it will never be the true and Gary would always regret to not to try to convince her family of his love for their daughter although this horrible event. And I suppose that, after a while being in prison if he pleaded guilty, he would convinced himself to believe it and would have a hard time dealing with what his mind want to believe and between what really happened because it was a surreal scenario after all.
So, for his well being and for the good of truth and justice (a cheesy way to call it, I know), it is right for him to plead guilty.
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Yes, I agree with that. And I also came to the conclusion that most probably he would be pronounced mentally ill. It's still better than people looking at you like you'd be a cold blood murderer.
- lavkathleen
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None of them would think or believe that he had serious mental health problems either, though. That would still be hard to prove. There's going to be a storm of emotions for sure but at the end of the day, I'd still be motivated by thoughts of Michelle. She might be dead but that is still going to affect people's memory of her.Anna Bookowski wrote: ↑01 Jul 2021, 12:35I also don't think he should plead guilty. I was thinking about what would I do in his place. Perhaps I would feel so terrible after seeing the video from the security camera, I would feel guilty after all? I imagine it would hurt me so much to be judged for such a crime, I wouldn't have the power to fight for myself. You're right - it would be extremely hard to prove innocence. I guess more people would believe in serious mental health problems than that he was overtaken by other-self, though.
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Why would it prolong others' suffering if he pleaded guilty? His dad suggested that it might actually help Michelle's family by giving them that closure as soon as possible. However, they'll think forever that he actually killed her. They deserve the truth.DyanaFl wrote: ↑01 Jul 2021, 12:16 Pleading guilty for a crime he did not commit does not sit well with me. He loved Michelle and there was no way he would have accepted that he was guilty of killing her. But if he did plead guilty, he would prolong the suffering of everyone involved. While I do not agree to keeping quiet for others' sake, it all mattered on what Gary thought more important.
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What's the difference between being responsible and being guilty? Just because it was his body, it doesn't make him guilty of the crime. That's weird. Is the quantum superposition still part of that argument?Anna Bookowski wrote: ↑01 Jul 2021, 12:22 This is certainly a correct statement. On the other hand, if we consider all implications of multiverse theory and reasoning taken from quantum physics: let's assume that Gary from all the worldlines is in a quantum superposition, which would mean that all the Garys are not apart beings but the very same one Gary existing in all the worlds simultaneously. In this case, Gary who lucid dreamed, and the other Gary who committed a murder, are exactly the same person - hence Gary is guilty after all. But of course, as you said, THIS version of Gary was not aware of his actions - so he should not be judged for it.
And now, even if not responsible - he's still guilty of doing what he did. Just probably should not pay for it with a prison sentence - I believe that what happened was already very painful for him.
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Like the others have mentioned, there are also other factors to consider. Michelle's parents, duration of his jailtime if he fails, etc. I agree with you, though. I'm just the stubborn type that wants honesty and authenticity as much as possible. Also, the world deserves to know that Michelle wasn't killed by her beloved boyfriend. It would be a shame if they remembered her in a different manner.
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- lavkathleen
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So, quantum superposition is still part of the argument. Wow. I didn't think of that. Probably because it's such a cruel way to see it. That's like saying that the crimes of the other versions of me across the multiverse are also mine, even if I wasn't aware of them, because of quantum superposition.Anna Bookowski wrote: ↑01 Jul 2021, 12:29 I understand what you mean. But I'm not sure if we can really say that he did not commit the crime - because he did, just was not conscious of it. I also think he was not guilty from this point of view. But now, if we take all the factors from the book, quantum physics implies that all the Garys from different worldlines are in fact the very same person. So even though this particular version of him did not decide to kill Michelle, he did that. I don't think he should be punished for this of course. I think what he felt was already terribly painful and undeserved.
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Being guilty I understand as committing the crime - the fact that you did something wrong makes you guilty. And being responsible for it I understand as accepting the fact and bearing the consequences of your actions. I agree with you that because it was his body doesn't make him guilty in a common meaning, but in this particular case - if we assume that the other Gary is also the same Gary - it does make him guilty. Because whichever Gary would do it, it was still him. (so I want to say: yes, the quantum superposition is still a part of the argument) There comes the matter of responsibility. I mean, I think that we all feel for this poor guy who was overtaken by the other him and forced to do such a horrible thing, we all somehow feel it would not be completely fair to punish him like a common murderer?lavkathleen wrote: ↑30 Jul 2021, 09:51What's the difference between being responsible and being guilty? Just because it was his body, it doesn't make him guilty of the crime. That's weird. Is the quantum superposition still part of that argument?Anna Bookowski wrote: ↑01 Jul 2021, 12:22 This is certainly a correct statement. On the other hand, if we consider all implications of multiverse theory and reasoning taken from quantum physics: let's assume that Gary from all the worldlines is in a quantum superposition, which would mean that all the Garys are not apart beings but the very same one Gary existing in all the worlds simultaneously. In this case, Gary who lucid dreamed, and the other Gary who committed a murder, are exactly the same person - hence Gary is guilty after all. But of course, as you said, THIS version of Gary was not aware of his actions - so he should not be judged for it.
And now, even if not responsible - he's still guilty of doing what he did. Just probably should not pay for it with a prison sentence - I believe that what happened was already very painful for him.
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Yes, I do agree with that. I also feel he should not plead guilty. But at this moment it's more of a matter of protecting his dignity. Because, contrary to what you said, he did commit the crime. Only that he did not remember it and did not intend.
- Anna Bookowski
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Yeah, I guess on this stage it didn't really matter anymore what he pleaded. I mean, it's more a formality. I believe pleading guilty would result in Gary being labeled as a murderer and a terrible person, who he obviously wasn't. That's why he probably should not do that. However, we know that in some other worldlines he had to plead guilty. Because all the possible versions must happen after all.
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How can i possibly disagree. this exactly what i am thinking, pleading guilty is lying, admitting to be a muderer, and giving michelle parent every reason to blame themselves. I mean i would blame myself, I would be like: if i hadnt agreed to him dating mitchelle, none of this will happen.MsH2k wrote: ↑30 Jul 2021, 23:41 I do not think Gary should plead guilty. In his consciousness, he did not murder Michelle. His body did, but it’s not the same thing. It is kind of like using a defense of “temporary insanity.” It is not paying respect to Michelle’s family to basically lie. Pleading guilty when he did not believe he was guilty will not bring Michelle back, and it really won’t answer her parents’ questions. They would at least know that they did not totally misread Gary and his love for their daughter if he held fast to his innocence. The other testimonies also showed that his state of mind was consistent with someone who thought they were innocent.