Do you think Gary should plead guilty in court?

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yomide
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Re: Do you think Gary should plead guilty in court?

Post by yomide »

Cutting it all simply, it doesnt seem to matter who is actually guilty for the crime and who is paying. One thing we should understand, black and blue line Gary are the same people. Although i understand Gary's need to plead not guilty; what i am saying is which ever Gary is guilty, one must pay. As they both had a hand in the murder of mitchelle, one made the decision and the other supplied the blow. so he is guilty, at least physically.
There is no point in trying to please a person who doesn't apreciate me. Besides, why do I have to try and please anyone in the first place?
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Post by Jackie Holycross »

As far as the story goes, I understand that he had no intent or control over killing Michelle. But it does make me wonder. What about people with multiple personalities. You can’t just put one personality in jail, but you would not want to let a serial killer go free. Not to mention this case opening the door for a new get out of jail free defense. It’s complicated.
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Post by Anna Bookowski »

teacherjh wrote: 25 Jul 2021, 15:02 As far as the story goes, I understand that he had no intent or control over killing Michelle. But it does make me wonder. What about people with multiple personalities. You can’t just put one personality in jail, but you would not want to let a serial killer go free. Not to mention this case opening the door for a new get out of jail free defense. It’s complicated.
Yes, this issue was also discussed in posts before. If the judge would take this sort of explanation into account and let Gary go, the consequences could be very disturbing indeed. I think in this case he would be treated as mentally ill. I guess the only possibility would be to choose some psychiatric unit instead of jail. And maybe it would actually work for this Gary because obviously this all would have to have a devastating impact on his mind.
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Post by Chiwelite O »

We can all tell how much Gary loved Michelle, I do not think the best option is to plead to a crime he did not commit. He can raise the defence of unconscious state of mind, or a mental illhealth. He would need a very good one to come out of this. Will be difficult convincing a judge he didn't intentionally do it.
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Post by lavkathleen »

Aah, this is such a complex matter. I like to be ideal and noble, so I'd say stick to the truth no matter what. And the truth is that he didn't kill Michelle. It wasn't whether he was in control or not— it was literally a different person in his body who did it. Practically, though, pleading guilty gives him less jail time and... his dad does have a point.
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Post by lavkathleen »

ROSEYANN wrote: 01 Jul 2021, 09:47 I think this surrounds the whole issue of intention. Gary loved Michelle and had no intention of harming her and having no recollections of committing the crime may be a valid reason for him not pleading guilty.
That's exactly why he didn't plead guilty. He fought for it. I admire that. There's also the fact that it was a literal different person inside his body who did it. The problem comes in when they had to figure out how to prove it. But we all know how that went.
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Post by lavkathleen »

Thabo Sibanda 1 wrote: 01 Jul 2021, 10:08 A person is only responsible for actions they decide and commit in a conscious tate of mind. So Gary should not plead guilty by any means since he committed the crime while lucid dreaming.
I agree. But just like what OP mentioned, pleading guilty would be a way to help Michelle's parents. There's also the fact that they only had a small chance of proving that it wasn't really him who murdered her. He could serve less jailtime if he just pleaded guilty. There's so much to consider.
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Post by lavkathleen »

jomana_3 wrote: 01 Jul 2021, 11:21 I don't think he should plead guilty; however, it's easier said than done. He saw a recorded video of himself killing Michelle. I guess if there was no evidence or an explanation, he'd feel guilty for putting her family in this situation, and he'd plead guilty.
You're right, it is easier said than done. That's why I pointed out both ideal and practical choices. If he would plead guilty without evidence... I think he'd only do it after some time. He's headstrong and stands by what he thinks is right.
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Post by lavkathleen »

Anna Bookowski wrote: 01 Jul 2021, 12:14 Yes, I think I agree with that. It was so heart-breaking, don't you think? I can't even imagine how terrible a person would feel if something like this would really happen! But I'm afraid that in reality, society would never believe this explanation, if anything they would place him in a compulsory mental care institution.
I was also wondering if my own feeling of being guilty - the consciousness of what I did even though I don't remember it - wouldn't make me plead guilty for myself.
True, the society as we know it would do exactly that. But since you mentioned real life, now I want to see this happen. :lol2: Minus the murder, of course. As for the guilt... I can't imagine someone pleading guilty for something they don't have a recollection of, as long as they weren't responsible for the loss of said memories of course. Maybe I'm just stubborn. :lol2:
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Post by Anna Bookowski »

Chiwelite O wrote: 26 Jul 2021, 18:34 We can all tell how much Gary loved Michelle, I do not think the best option is to plead to a crime he did not commit. He can raise the defence of unconscious state of mind, or a mental illhealth. He would need a very good one to come out of this. Will be difficult convincing a judge he didn't intentionally do it.
I agree almost on everything, with an exception of him not commiting the crime. I mean, he DID do that. Physically, using his own hands, he did stab the girl. But of course, as you said, it would be extremely difficult to prove innocence, even though, as we see on this forum, most of the readers feel clearly that he should not be held responsible for it.
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Post by Anna Bookowski »

lavkathleen wrote: 27 Jul 2021, 11:37 Aah, this is such a complex matter. I like to be ideal and noble, so I'd say stick to the truth no matter what. And the truth is that he didn't kill Michelle. It wasn't whether he was in control or not— it was literally a different person in his body who did it. Practically, though, pleading guilty gives him less jail time and... his dad does have a point.
I get what you're saying but can't agree on few things. First, he did kill Michelle. Not consciously, but physically he did. And second, you say it was literally a different person in his body, but I'm afraid it was not a different person, but - in fact - exactly the same person, although from a different worldline. What I mean is that we have to understand that the multiverse theory implies that all the Garys are the very same person. It's not like these are different people. They're exactly the same person, only split into a quantum superposition. It's sort of like a computer program. Like you're living every possible scenario ever simultaneously. But it's still the same you, only going different ways and trying out different possibilities.
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Post by Anna Bookowski »

lavkathleen wrote: 27 Jul 2021, 11:40
ROSEYANN wrote: 01 Jul 2021, 09:47 I think this surrounds the whole issue of intention. Gary loved Michelle and had no intention of harming her and having no recollections of committing the crime may be a valid reason for him not pleading guilty.
That's exactly why he didn't plead guilty. He fought for it. I admire that. There's also the fact that it was a literal different person inside his body who did it. The problem comes in when they had to figure out how to prove it. But we all know how that went.
Again, it was not a different person, but the very same Gary, only from a different worldline. :techie-studyinggray: Forgive me for being so stubborn about it, but without understanding this issue, the whole argumentation is simply invalid. Other than that, I agree that to prove it seems highly unlikable :)
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Post by Anna Bookowski »

lavkathleen wrote: 27 Jul 2021, 11:43
Thabo Sibanda 1 wrote: 01 Jul 2021, 10:08 A person is only responsible for actions they decide and commit in a conscious tate of mind. So Gary should not plead guilty by any means since he committed the crime while lucid dreaming.
I agree. But just like what OP mentioned, pleading guilty would be a way to help Michelle's parents. There's also the fact that they only had a small chance of proving that it wasn't really him who murdered her. He could serve less jailtime if he just pleaded guilty. There's so much to consider.
I've got a different point of view concerning Michelle's parents. I think because they knew Gary for a long time and they knew he loved their daughter, it would not be very useful if he would plead guilty. Because they would like to hear the reason for it and try to understand. And Gary would not have a reason to give, other than that he was possessed by the other him. And we all know how it sounds... But if he'd plead not guilty, then at least he could protect the rest of his dignity and display his utter love for Michelle. Most probably he would be pronounced insane though, because is not very possible the court (or anyone on that matter) would believe his reasoning.
But on the happier note, according to multiverse theory, he would be left free and not guilty in at least one of the other possible worldlines! :tiphat:
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Post by Lissethe_H »

I think Gary should not plead guilty in court, why? Because although he commited the crime, he is unable to recall it due to a "fantastical" experience. Without that happening, he would never kill his "soulmate". And pleading guilty in behalf of Michelle´s family? No. Although it could give them peace, it will never be the true and Gary would always regret to not to try to convince her family of his love for their daughter although this horrible event. And I suppose that, after a while being in prison if he pleaded guilty, he would convinced himself to believe it and would have a hard time dealing with what his mind want to believe and between what really happened because it was a surreal scenario after all.
So, for his well being and for the good of truth and justice (a cheesy way to call it, I know), it is right for him to plead guilty.
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Post by Anna Bookowski »

LissetheH wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 10:40 I think Gary should not plead guilty in court, why? Because although he commited the crime, he is unable to recall it due to a "fantastical" experience. Without that happening, he would never kill his "soulmate". And pleading guilty in behalf of Michelle´s family? No. Although it could give them peace, it will never be the true and Gary would always regret to not to try to convince her family of his love for their daughter although this horrible event. And I suppose that, after a while being in prison if he pleaded guilty, he would convinced himself to believe it and would have a hard time dealing with what his mind want to believe and between what really happened because it was a surreal scenario after all.
So, for his well being and for the good of truth and justice (a cheesy way to call it, I know), it is right for him to plead guilty.
Yes, I do agree with that. I also came to the conclusion that if he would plead guilty, they would look at him as he was a monster, a murderer. Taking the circumstances, it wouldn't make much sense anymore. The only thing he could do to protect himself from being seen as a criminal, was to plead not guilty. Even though the chances of being let free were close to zero. It would be more like a way to protect his dignity.
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