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roguexunited wrote:Personally I think that idea is obsolete. Many authors have gone past the whole good and bad thing (back and white) and established that life isn't that simple, there are always shades of grey. So I don't think that back creeps out, it's always been there just as the good.

I think both good and Bad are inherently within us. Here I would like to quote from Harry potter where sirius explains to harry " We've all got light and dark inside us. What matter is the part we choose to act on. That's who we really are." And yes sometimes our emotions, situations ...etc...make us do things we would never normally do. and we all must accept that we all make mistakes and take wrong decisions....

I think bad shouldn't be seen as something that poisons you; being bad is an essential part of life. If there were no bad parts of humans, would we be humans? We would not have the same emotions. Life would be boring and primitive.

That seems rather dark, but to quote Mr. and Mrs. Baudelaire in A Series of Unfortunate Events, "Believe me when I say there is much more good in [the world] than bad."

I agree with this quote. If we assume that we are all born with a clean slate, no bias or prejudice, no judgment of ourselves or others, then it follow that those things "creep in" over time, as we grow up, as we are exposed to the "poisons" around us. We all have the free will to choose how, and if, we allow those poisons to impact who we are, and how they impact us. We either accept the poison and develop a bias or prejudice, or we reject it. Inevitably, it seems that there will always, to some degree, be bad things that will impact us and change who we are. I don't think we are necessarily doomed, but there is a little bad in everyone, just as there is a little good in everyone. I hope that the good outweighs the bad.

Being 'bad' is just and important to human nature as being 'good'. But here is the tricky part. If you look throughout history and in the book Divergent itself, You will find that the 'bad' is people doing bad things for the good of mankind. Or that least, that is what the people doing 'bad' think they are doing.
If anyone here has taken the time to read the books Hitler has published you come to the unmistakable conclusion that he truly thought he was doing the right thing. It is the same with Jeanine Matthews. She thought she was doing what was right for society by destroying what was 'bad' about society.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

Scott wrote:The following discussion question was included in some copies of the June book of the month, Divergent by Veronica Roth.

Tris’s mom says, “Human beings as a whole cannot be good for long before the bad creeps back in and poisons us again” (p. 441). Do you agree or disagree? Why?

I have to answer this question by looking at it from a different point of veiw (though, admittedly, I didn't read every comment ).
I think individuals can do much good, can even live their whole life and do no real harm, or even do great things.
People, the plural, groups, I believe the "bad" will always creep back in, I believe that's part of human nature.
How does the saying go? It only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch.

100% agree! Maybe not all people have bad in them or at least different ways of looking at things that might create a rift in their society, but enough do that could overthrow any harmony that exists. The factions were created for peace and prosperity but each faction is somehow part of trying to disrupt that, maybe not Amity but I don't really know much about that faction yet having only read the first book in the series.

An interesting question. Certainly in the context of a novel you need conflict in order to have an entertaining experience. Conflict drives the story and having evil slowly work its way into the world is a theme that fills many, many books. You can also say that without conflict a book tends to be boring, more of a travelogue than a story.

In the real world I suspect that boring is a thing which we do not deal well with. Children get bored and do bad things to get excitement and attention. Acting out is not a philosophical concept, it's a reality. So in a world where everything is good, we as individuals would get bored and "act out".

I'd like to think that in an ideal world that acting out would be confined to mischievous acts, but the fact is that such things escalate. So in the end I suspect that she is right. If there were no bad things going on, we would create them. The bad, arising out of boredom and a need for challenge and accomplishment would drive us to evil. We do it to ourselves.

I don't know I concur with this. Not people all in all, in any event. I think we regularly observe the negatives more obviously than the positives, and, truly, media for quite a few years can be a piece of the issue here.

I think it's true. When people do good, there are always those who become envious or want power for themselves. This leads to corruption and later destruction.

As humans we are all selfish in our own ways ,we do things that benefit us and sadly evil can be part of it.We all forget our morals as tell ourselves the end justifies the means.

I agree with this and history seems to agree as well. The caveat is that when things are bad, good will creep up too.
With so many revolutions, history proves that too.

Ultimately, I guess it comes and goes in waves. I think the world is kind of a "three steps forward, two steps back" place but that means we are still slowly moving forward.

YesI think bad does always creep back. There will always be someone who wants more wealth and power and who will subvert any system made to spread these things equally. For example, rationing during WW2 in the UK ensured that everybody had food and clothes, yet the black market was huge.

I generally agree, but not in the context of which the quote is said. I believe that bad in the world we live in is generally associated with murder, stealing, abuse, or other drastic measures. However, lying, cheating, and causing pain all count as bad things today. Therefore, I think that bad does rise up in everyone, but not as drastically as the book implies.

“Human beings as a whole cannot be good for long before the bad creeps back in and poisons us again”

"As a whole" is the important phrase here. While I fully believe that individuals can turn over a new leaf and be better versions of themselves in a permanent way, I don't think that humans in general will ever truly be good. I don't think there's been an instance in human history where human beings as a whole could ever really be considered "good". Perhaps defining "good" would help in answering this more fully. But, as it stands, I have to agree, even if it's bleak.