Dealing with grammar

Deyvion · Post by **Deyvion** » 17 Apr 2013, 14:26

Hi,

I consider myself quite fluent in English. I am studying it at the university at the moment and I often find myself writing in English, even the times when I make diary entries. And right, I am Swedish. So here is my question to those of you who write, in English or other languages. How do you deal with grammar? When it comes to punctuation, well, let's say I am not perfect. However, when it comes to my writing, I am a perfectionist, and the grammar problems I get usually hinders my writing. How is it for you?

lady_charlie · Post by **lady_charlie** » 17 Apr 2013, 20:39

I think you just have to keep practicing and studying and challenging yourself. You write very well, by the way.
One indicator of fluency is sentence length and you have a 26 word sentence there, and your punctuation seems fine to me.
We know that some three year-olds will sometimes come up with an 8-10 word sentence in their native language, but 26 words is pretty high level for any native speaker of any language.
Also using a wide variety of vocabulary indicates fluency, and I would think that "hinders" would be a pretty low frequency word for a native speaker.
I do know some Spanish and I know I make mistakes. When I speak I self-correct fairly often, my tongue gets ahead of my brain. Naturally we write better than we speak, and we can read more than we can write or say. I think that is just how it is when you learn another language.
If your letter is an example of your work without any aids, dictionaries or translators, I would guess you could do fairly well at a university here taking your courses in English.
What is your favorite book in English?
What is your favorite book in your language?
Will you write something for us in your language with the translation?

BluePoui · Post by **BluePoui** » 17 Apr 2013, 21:42

I am proud of you for writing in another language. I just started studying another language and I will have my writing translated! Writing is different, the rules are important, a misplaced letter or punctuation changes the meaning. Keep it simple and take the time to get it right. Keep trying - everything(?) improves with practice.

Kelhanion · Post by **Kelhanion** » 18 Apr 2013, 10:56

I write in Finnish most of the time as I don't feel comfortable enough with my English. I mean I know I can get my points across but I don't feel like I could handle the necessary little nuances and my prose would lack expressivity. Plus I'd write ten times slower.

When I write in Finnish I try to follow the rules of grammar - unless I break them on purpose, which I do quite a lot. Written Finnish is cumbersome (nobody talks like that and even in inner monologues it can feel a bit "forced"). I use "incomplete" sentences, misuse punctuation marks to get certain feeling across etc. I like to think that using a living language like this feels natural to the reader. Unintentional mistakes are another thing. The reader would be quite displeased if they would saw some annoying mistake repeate constantly.

So I am more of a descriptivist than a prescriptivist but I know that there are limits to bending the norm. Language is a tool but the focus should remain in the story, not in "mutilating" the language

lady_charlie · Post by **lady_charlie** » 18 Apr 2013, 16:28

Kelhanion wrote:I write in Finnish most of the time as I don't feel comfortable enough with my English. I mean I know I can get my points across but I don't feel like I could handle the necessary little nuances and my prose would lack expressivity. Plus I'd write ten times slower.

When I write in Finnish I try to follow the rules of grammar - unless I break them on purpose, which I do quite a lot. Written Finnish is cumbersome (nobody talks like that and even in inner monologues it can feel a bit "forced"). I use "incomplete" sentences, misuse punctuation marks to get certain feeling across etc. I like to think that using a living language like this feels natural to the reader. Unintentional mistakes are another thing. The reader would be quite displeased if they would saw some annoying mistake repeate constantly.

So I am more of a descriptivist than a prescriptivist but I know that there are limits to bending the norm. Language is a tool but the focus should remain in the story, not in "mutilating" the language

Well may I say that I read your other posts and I wondered. You use more big words and longer sentences than anyone I know, not that I know heaps and tons of highly educated well-spoken people. I have a few acquaintances who are not entirely uneducated, but most of us get by on a few thousand words, and never bother to learn new ones.

Kelhanion · Post by **Kelhanion** » 18 Apr 2013, 23:45

lady_charlie wrote:Well may I say that I read your other posts and I wondered. You use more big words and longer sentences than anyone I know, not that I know heaps and tons of highly educated well-spoken people. I have a few acquaintances who are not entirely uneducated, but most of us get by on a few thousand words, and never bother to learn new ones.

What I mean is that while I know English in a technical sense, I don't know enough about how people actually speak. I can mix up British and American English and I have no idea which idioms are "in" and in what demographies or what parts of the world and which are fifty years old, stuff like that. I could write only one type of character believably, and that is "a young Finnish person who has learned English as a second language and who must sound like he has a stick in his...". In other words, I don't know how to "break" the language for it to sound more natural. In Finnish I am able to write far more casually.

I know that I wouldn't have to know every little thing about every major English dialect (since who does, anyway), but it is just something that bothers me. My street thugs would sound like weird stereotypes (Irish gangsta rappers of the 80s) and my upper class aristocrats could speak like ancient kings or like New York houseviwes. Even in Finnish it is very hard to make the dialogue fit the character. In English it would distract me too much and I would spend hours investigating how a certain group says "hi"

DATo · Post by **DATo** » 19 Apr 2013, 08:29

Deyvion wrote:Hi,

I consider myself quite fluent in English. I am studying it at the university at the moment and I often find myself writing in English, even the times when I make diary entries. And right, I am Swedish. So here is my question to those of you who write, in English or other languages. How do you deal with grammar? When it comes to punctuation, well, let's say I am not perfect. However, when it comes to my writing, I am a perfectionist, and the grammar problems I get usually hinders my writing. How is it for you?

Deyvion,

I would not be too concerned. The quality of your grammar in these posts exceeds that of most Americans I know. As far as punctuation: I'm sure you would be able to find many websites online which deal with this. If you intend to write professionally I think your publisher would "wash everything through an editor" (to use an idiomatic expression).

With regard to your concern about idioms, you are not alone. I think idioms are something you can learn only by direct exposure. I once worked with two scientists from Germany and one of them was fascinated by American idiomatic expressions and sayings. He kept a list of them and wrote to tell me that he read them to a group of friends at a party when he returned home. The one which the group voted the best was one by my supervisor at that time which went: "This procedure is more tedious than picking fly s_ _ _ t out of pepper!"

Your English and writing are great. Don't worry!

cyborgminotaur · Post by **cyborgminotaur** » 19 Apr 2013, 11:18

Hi there Deyvion. Your written English is perfect. Not to detract from the achievement, but I've noticed over the years that some non-native speakers of English often easily surpass the standard of average native speakers in their writing.

As far as my own experience goes, I've been through quite a trajectory. From a very early age (8), I had a hoarder's fascination for my own language. I learned by heart huge lists of collective nouns - needed, back in the day, for what we'd now call descriptive writing (things have certainly move on now). I also internalised grammar really early, and even though I went to a very academic school, I didn't learn anything new in this area.

Hilariously, in retrospect, I amassed an arcane vocabulary that I inserted into my writing at every possible opportunity. Put all these things together, and what came out? An absurd, overwrought prose style that got in the way of what I was trying to say. That took me years to overcome.

Where are we now? I think spoken idiomatic English mediates written English much more than it used to be in all registers of English other than academic writing. And clarity's the thing, above all else.

Fran · Post by **Fran** » 19 Apr 2013, 14:38

cyborgminotaur wrote:Hi there Deyvion. Your written English is perfect. Not to detract from the achievement, but I've noticed over the years that some non-native speakers of English often easily surpass the standard of average native speakers in their writing.

As far as my own experience goes, I've been through quite a trajectory. From a very early age (8), I had a hoarder's fascination for my own language. I learned by heart huge lists of collective nouns - needed, back in the day, for what we'd now call descriptive writing (things have certainly move on now). I also internalised grammar really early, and even though I went to a very academic school, I didn't learn anything new in this area.

Hilariously, in retrospect, I amassed an arcane vocabulary that I inserted into my writing at every possible opportunity. Put all these things together, and what came out? An absurd, overwrought prose style that got in the way of what I was trying to say. That took me years to overcome.

Where are we now? I think spoken idiomatic English mediates written English much more than it used to be in all registers of English other than academic writing. And clarity's the thing, above all else.

I have no idea what that sentence is supposed to mean.

cyborgminotaur · Post by **cyborgminotaur** » 20 Apr 2013, 07:10

Hi Moderator,

Ah, forgive me! That began as two sentences. I took a phone call and hurriedly completed the post.

It doesn't make sense; you're quite right.

How about this: Outside a few specialist genres of writing, the way we write much more closely matches the way we speak than used to be the case.

Fran · Post by **Fran** » 20 Apr 2013, 08:31

cyborgminotaur wrote:Hi Moderator,

Ah, forgive me! That began as two sentences. I took a phone call and hurriedly completed the post. It doesn't make sense; you're quite right.

How about this: Outside a few specialist genres of writing, the way we write much more closely matches the way we speak than used to be the case.

Brevity & clarity ... excellent

cyborgminotaur · Post by **cyborgminotaur** » 20 Apr 2013, 11:19

Fran wrote: Brevity & clarity ... excellent

Yep!

lady_charlie · Post by **lady_charlie** » 20 Apr 2013, 23:15

cyborgminotaur wrote:
Fran wrote: Brevity & clarity ... excellent
Yep!

I think I get some points for understanding you the first time.

-- 20 Apr 2013, 23:24 --

Kelhanion wrote:
lady_charlie wrote:Well may I say that I read your other posts and I wondered. You use more big words and longer sentences than anyone I know, not that I know heaps and tons of highly educated well-spoken people. I have a few acquaintances who are not entirely uneducated, but most of us get by on a few thousand words, and never bother to learn new ones.
What I mean is that while I know English in a technical sense, I don't know enough about how people actually speak. I can mix up British and American English and I have no idea which idioms are "in" and in what demographies or what parts of the world and which are fifty years old, stuff like that. I could write only one type of character believably, and that is "a young Finnish person who has learned English as a second language and who must sound like he has a stick in his...". In other words, I don't know how to "break" the language for it to sound more natural. In Finnish I am able to write far more casually.

I know that I wouldn't have to know every little thing about every major English dialect (since who does, anyway), but it is just something that bothers me. My street thugs would sound like weird stereotypes (Irish gangsta rappers of the 80s) and my upper class aristocrats could speak like ancient kings or like New York houseviwes. Even in Finnish it is very hard to make the dialogue fit the character. In English it would distract me too much and I would spend hours investigating how a certain group says "hi"

oh, so if you wanted to be a writer and write books in English - yes, I agree there are editors out there who could help you if you had a good story ready. There are tons of great books that have been published in lots of languages.
I have learned an awful lot of English from the people here and from HP: tuck in, for example, is what we do to our children at bedtime here, but I think it means sit down and eat in England.
For fun I know there is a Sporcle game with about 35 things they say in England that I would not understand - we wear our pants on the outside, a bonnet is a hat, a lift is when you give someone a ride in your car. Biscuits are bread, like soft dinner rolls.
Have you ever read Pygmalion?

Fran · Post by **Fran** » 21 Apr 2013, 04:46

lady_charlie wrote:oh, so if you wanted to be a writer and write books in English - yes, I agree there are editors out there who could help you if you had a good story ready. There are tons of great books that have been published in lots of languages.
I have learned an awful lot of English from the people here and from HP: tuck in, for example, is what we do to our children at bedtime here, but I think it means sit down and eat in England.
For fun I know there is a Sporcle game with about 35 things they say in England that I would not understand - we wear our pants on the outside, a bonnet is a hat, a lift is when you give someone a ride in your car. Biscuits are bread, like soft dinner rolls.
Have you ever read Pygmalion?

I'm Irish and we speak our own version of English & believe me you really do not want to get "a lift" and "a ride" confused in Ireland - consequences could be embarassing or worse!

Deyvion · Post by **Deyvion** » 21 Apr 2013, 08:52

Thank you for all the replies. I am actually very happy to see my question turned into a discission. The reason why I write in English is because the stories in my head are not suited to be set in Sweden. I also never thought about the editor's role in the process. That actually made things more easy.

So thanks! And keep discussing