Tracking multiple characters in conversation

[saviolo]

If you are writing about two characters having a conversation, you don't need many extra comments to help the reader track the one currently speaking.

When you have three or four, I find it becomes less easy to keep track of them without putting in more description. My clear, punchy dialogue gets littered with 'John butted in', 'Ah yes, Sarah said' etc etc.

Does anyone else sometimes run across this as ab annoyance?

[HalcyonFlower]

I feel it takes a a skilled writer to be able to pull it off. I've read a lot of teen fiction and it doesn't work too well. But the one book I've seen to pull it off well is Wicked by Gregory McGuire. He kept it so simple that speech was so natural.

[moderntimes]

Very interesting query, saviolo, and it's one that I work with constantly in my novel. I just finished my new private detective novel, Blood Vengeance, and I have several scenes where more than 2 characters are speaking. I don't want to just keep putting in "...Joe said." so I have to vary the scheme and not make things pat, but also let the reader know who's talking. Here's an example of how I vary this... this is at a crime scene and we've got the private eye Mitch King (1st person narrator), homicide detective David Meierhoff, and a CSI tech Tom Phelps, plus the senior homicide cop Joe Duggan who's standing there listening to the conversation till he interrupts. What happened was a murder, body discovered, and a nun who teaches at the nearby St. Vincent found the body. She's just left. And she was dressed in a dark blue skirt & jacket, white blouse beneath, not a nun's habit -- so I'd like feedback on the conversation, okay?:

=====

One of the CSI techs, a guy named Tom Phelps, had been listening. He frowned. “Sister Mary Frances? A nun? Don’t nuns, like…” He curved both hands around his head, indicating a coif.

“You watch too much TV, Tom, and movies,” I told him. “Nuns in the US haven’t resembled penguins since Vatican Two in, ah…” I drew a momentary blank.

Meierhoff immediately took up the slack. “Second Vatican council, nineteen sixty-two, convened by Pope John twenty-three.”

“You’re Jewish,” I said. “How come you know that?”

Meierhoff winked at me. “Keeping up on the competition.”

“So,” Tom asked. “Nuns now dress like Dana Scully?”

“But with longer hemlines,” I said. “Some still maintain the traditional habit, pun intended.”

There was a brief pause, then Meierhoff sighed. “Dana Scully. I sure had a crush on Gillian Anderson.”

“Ha!” Tom laughed. “Tell me what nerd didn’t?”

“I actually think she’s better looking today,” I offered. “Saw her in Hannibal on TV.

“Y’know who I thought was sexier, though?” Tom said. “Mimi, whatzhername, you know, ah, Rogers, Mimi Rogers. Played another FBI gal. Was in Playboy, too.”

“Mimi Rogers, otherwise Mrs. ex-Tom Cruise,” Meierhoff said.

Tom chuckled. “Meierhoff’s right, Cruise it is. Ya gotta keep an eye on Meierhoff here, Mitch. He’s up to date on Hollywood, reads all the murder mysteries, downloads CSI episodes so he can compare what we do with TV. He’s so very helpful that way.” Tom smiled, jerking Meierhoff’s chain. “Ol’ Sergeant Meierhoff’s real smart, a regular brainiac.”

“Not a good analogy,” Meierhoff said. “Brainiac is actually a malevolent alien entity who attacks the Earth, tries to kill Superman and other superheroes. In Frank Miller’s graphic novel Dark Knight Strikes Again, Brainiac—”

“Whoa,” Duggan interrupted, his arms raised. “Hold on. Can we back off the trivia a while and stop talking like we’re in a Quentin goddamn Tarantino movie? There’s a murder investigation, in case you’ve all forgotten.”

[gali]

Very interesting query, saviolo, and it's one that I work with constantly in my novel. I just finished my new private detective novel, Blood Vengeance, and I have several scenes where more than 2 characters are speaking. I don't want to just keep putting in "...Joe said." so I have to vary the scheme and not make things pat, but also let the reader know who's talking. Here's an example of how I vary this... this is at a crime scene and we've got the private eye Mitch King (1st person narrator), homicide detective David Meierhoff, and a CSI tech Tom Phelps, plus the senior homicide cop Joe Duggan who's standing there listening to the conversation till he interrupts. What happened was a murder, body discovered, and a nun who teaches at the nearby St. Vincent found the body. She's just left. And she was dressed in a dark blue skirt & jacket, white blouse beneath, not a nun's habit -- so I'd like feedback on the conversation, okay?:

=====

One of the CSI techs, a guy named Tom Phelps, had been listening. He frowned. “Sister Mary Frances? A nun? Don’t nuns, like…” He curved both hands around his head, indicating a coif.

“You watch too much TV, Tom, and movies,” I told him. “Nuns in the US haven’t resembled penguins since Vatican Two in, ah…” I drew a momentary blank.

Meierhoff immediately took up the slack. “Second Vatican council, nineteen sixty-two, convened by Pope John twenty-three.”

“You’re Jewish,” I said. “How come you know that?”

Meierhoff winked at me. “Keeping up on the competition.”

“So,” Tom asked. “Nuns now dress like Dana Scully?”

“But with longer hemlines,” I said. “Some still maintain the traditional habit, pun intended.”

There was a brief pause, then Meierhoff sighed. “Dana Scully. I sure had a crush on Gillian Anderson.”

“Ha!” Tom laughed. “Tell me what nerd didn’t?”

“I actually think she’s better looking today,” I offered. “Saw her in Hannibal on TV.

“Y’know who I thought was sexier, though?” Tom said. “Mimi, whatzhername, you know, ah, Rogers, Mimi Rogers. Played another FBI gal. Was in Playboy, too.”

“Mimi Rogers, otherwise Mrs. ex-Tom Cruise,” Meierhoff said.

Tom chuckled. “Meierhoff’s right, Cruise it is. Ya gotta keep an eye on Meierhoff here, Mitch. He’s up to date on Hollywood, reads all the murder mysteries, downloads CSI episodes so he can compare what we do with TV. He’s so very helpful that way.” Tom smiled, jerking Meierhoff’s chain. “Ol’ Sergeant Meierhoff’s real smart, a regular brainiac.”

“Not a good analogy,” Meierhoff said. “Brainiac is actually a malevolent alien entity who attacks the Earth, tries to kill Superman and other superheroes. In Frank Miller’s graphic novel Dark Knight Strikes Again, Brainiac—”

“Whoa,” Duggan interrupted, his arms raised. “Hold on. Can we back off the trivia a while and stop talking like we’re in a Quentin goddamn Tarantino movie? There’s a murder investigation, in case you’ve all forgotten.”

Well put! I had no trouble distinguish between the speakers.

-- May 27th, 2014, 3:47 pm --

I have read some book in which I had trouble to follow the conversation and I had to reread the passage in order to understand who said what. It gets irritating after a while.

[moderntimes]

Thanks. Just as you've had to re-read passages that were confusing, I as the author re-read what I'd written several times, ensuring that 1- the speakers were identified, and 2- I varied the "telltales" so that it wouldn't be repetitive, such as "Tom chuckled" or "I offered" or "Meierhoff sighed" to vary the rhythm.

Incidentally, as I just finished editing and reviewing my 60k+ word novel (getting it ready for the agent) I carefully worked through every page, every paragraph, to make the novel exciting and fresh to the eye and mind, carrying the story line but at the same time providing little "asides" such as the one above, to make the reader smile.

Writing novels is hard work! Everything has to balance, and for a mystery, I've also got to plant clues in the story that lead the detective to new events. Very tricky stuff but I'm a good planner and it seems to be a good story. At least my girlfriend thinks so! ha ha

[gali]

Thanks. Just as you've had to re-read passages that were confusing, I as the author re-read what I'd written several times, ensuring that 1- the speakers were identified, and 2- I varied the "telltales" so that it wouldn't be repetitive, such as "Tom chuckled" or "I offered" or "Meierhoff sighed" to vary the rhythm.

Incidentally, as I just finished editing and reviewing my 60k+ word novel (getting it ready for the agent) I carefully worked through every page, every paragraph, to make the novel exciting and fresh to the eye and mind, carrying the story line but at the same time providing little "asides" such as the one above, to make the reader smile.

Writing novels is hard work! Everything has to balance, and for a mystery, I've also got to plant clues in the story that lead the detective to new events. Very tricky stuff but I'm a good planner and it seems to be a good story. At least my girlfriend thinks so! ha ha

I noticed that you varied the words and liked that. I also liked the Meierhoff character.

Good luck with your book!

[moderntimes]

Thanks! Here's some more about Sgt. Detective David Meierhoff of Houston Homicide -- he's a "new wave" cop, college degree, smart. His boss is Lt. Joe Duggan, old school but also sharp:

I reached out my hand, David Meierhoff and I shook. He’s five-eleven, maybe an inch taller than I, definitely more athletic and handsome, resembling a rakish young Elliot Gould. David always dresses impeccably, today a blue dress shirt, deeper blue power tie, dark slacks, and a soft tan sport jacket. For a long time, Joe Duggan’s attire was no challenge to Meierhoff, and although Joe was now knocking at fashion’s door, Meierhoff still had everyone at the cop shop beat, like a stylish Kojak minus the little cigar and later, the more politically correct lollipop.

Sometime back I did a bit of casual digging, found that when David was a teen, he’d inherited money from a wealthy uncle, invested it wisely with his father’s help, and since he breezed through Texas A&M on full academic scholarship, he had a nice cash reserve left over. So he used the occasional dividends to buy stylish clothes, the remainder squandered on a high mileage but cherry Porsche 911, season tickets to Houston Grand Opera, and other aspects of conspicuous consumption in accordance with the now discredited social theories of the very stodgy and supremely boring economist Thorstein Veblen. In several ways, David and I were much alike, something that drew us together.

“Duggan says you’re primary here,” I told him.

“True. It’s because of my rugged good looks and kindly demeanor.” David’s voice was clear, his English superb, tinged with a faint trace of mid-European accent. This he’d inherited from his Austro-Hungarian grandparents who fled the old country, like many, to escape anti-Semitic persecution.

Duggan snorted at Meierhoff’s humorous and glib assessment of his own status. “Or maybe it’s ’cause you’re HPD lead on the Slicer task force?”

“That, too,” David said, smiling.

[hopeingod]

I liked what I read, mt. Do you have in memory all the words that relate to speaking, like said, retorted, replied, quipped, and snorted (that's a good one), or do you get them from the top of your head? Also, you add, as I see, a bit of the person's background after a sentence is spoken to give a reason for the accent and add influence to the person, rather than letting it stand alone.

I like that and plan to use more as I write my nonfiction book which is coming to me in short stories. Maybe that's an odd way of doing it, but I'm hoping to find transitions that put the whole thing together when I finish sixty years of short stories.

The description of clothes introduces competition on attire. A PC lollipop fits well, but it would be a nice contrast in Melehoff's design to not think that way in regard to his job. Being PC is too nice and seems to always scream for a release of the much hated, and awfully offensive truth.

See. again you used one's speech to relay personal history and potential influence. Nice lesson. Thanks.

[moderntimes]

Everything I write regarding variety and word choice comes from in the head -- nothing is ever written in a note file.

The only things I generally keep in my "notes" document are character names (spelling small character names the same, keeping track of them, not using "Jim" or "Karen" too much). I also note plot ideas and occasionally a crucial plot turn or a specific conversation will pop up in my mind and I jot that down for later use -- for example, the final confrontation with the serial killer (the book's penultimate chapter) was written a couple weeks prior to my finishing the other last chapters.

I talk about Meierhoff's personality in other sections of the book. The lollipop was used by Kojak, not Meierhoff. I was just comparing Kojak's stylish dress to David's.

Regarding the background and characteristics of the person, I don't set this out in one huge long paragraph (I see this a lot in some foreign novels I've reviewed) because that's boooringgg. Instead I give details piecemeal, and vary that with narrative on what's happening and plenty of dialogue. Dialogue is the "battery juice" of a novel and poor dialogue makes a book too slow.

That being said, I affect a brisk style anyway, short sentences, short paragraphs. After all, I'm not writing a "mainstream" novel but a lively mystery.

Here's another section where I introduce characters:

First thing I saw when entering the conference room was boots, a pair of hand-tooled beauties decorated with an Alamo theme propped on the table. The boots were worn by Texas Ranger Arvis Danforth. He’s about six-two, slender and athletic, salt-and-pepper hair cut just long enough to offer a Western take without being gaudy, a perfectly trimmed mustache to balance. Danforth is a handsome man with the weathered appearance of someone as used to the saddle as his Ranger issue SUV. His attire was completed by light brown slacks with a law enforcement-style stripe down the leg, a white Western dress shirt, bolo tie, a silver Lone Star badge on his belt, and a fine leather holster that matched the boots. In the holster a big 1911 .45 pistol, Kimber I thought.

Ranger Danforth was sitting next to a man who appeared his polar opposite. He was FBI Special Agent Ed Scudder, an older guy, unkempt grey hair, well-used overcoat, slightly rumpled appearance. Agent Danforth bore a striking resemblance to actor William B. Davis, the subversive Cigarette Smoking Man from X-Files. And the fact that Danforth was a chain smoker didn’t help dispel the image. He told us that he would often get stopped by people in airports, asking for his autograph. “What do you do?” I asked. He smiled, shrugged. “I just sign Bill Davis and thank them.”

To Danforth’s right was Detective Juanita Hertza, head of the HPD Hispanic gang unit. I’d never actually met her, just knew her by sight. I figured she was here to gig me on being pals with Julio Cardozo, pick up on the mantra where Joe Duggan left off. Hertza was about forty, a heavyset Latina, face worn and tired, lined with worries concomitant with her difficult job. She looked unhappy and probably wanted everyone else to know it.

(and a bit later)

Detective Hertza had been frowning the whole time, and now she opened a folder before her, swung it around for me to see. A photo of Cardozo, apparently shot from a telephoto lens as he was getting into a car. He was younger, the picture from years back. Hertza poked at the image, glared at me. “You know who this is, right?”

“Yes, ma’am. Julio Cardozo. He’s the legal guardian of my client, Cheryl Stern.”

Her gaze was dark. “And you know he’s a gang leader and overall thug?”

I sighed. Here we go again. “Yes,” I replied. “I’m a private investigator. We often have clients who are on the other side of the law. Like attorneys.”

“Nothing like attorneys,” she snuffed. “I’d like to know exactly what you were—”

“Juanita,” Joe Duggan surprised me by interrupting. “We already went through this. Mitch here is straight with me and I’ll vouch for him. I’d prefer we focus on the murder, if we can.”

Hertza wasn’t deterred. “I think it’s relevant and I think that Mister King here knows more than he’s letting on.” She ponked her stubby finger at the photo of Cardozo, glowered. “How are you involved with Julie Cards’ criminal enterprise? Are you getting kickbacks for feeding him confidential information? Information such as what might be discussed here?”

With that, she hit the nail on the head. Exactly what Cardozo asked me to do. And I had no real comeback except to lie again, lie to a group of experienced police professionals. Right on trying that tactic.

But within seconds, my salvation came. I was rescued by an intrepid Texas Ranger. “Ma’am?” Danforth leaned forward, a placating smile on his slender face.

“Don’t call me ma’am, Ranger Danforth. You’re older than me!”

Danforth spread his hands in a peacemaker gesture. “My apologies, Detective.” He then turned on his best smile. “I realize you’ve got plenty of issues here and want to explore them. But maybe it’s be better you take them offline, chat with Mitch later, ’cause we need to focus on the shooting right now.”

There was silence for a moment. Then Hertza squinted at Danforth, Duggan, and me in turn, harrumphed to indicate her displeasure. “Okay. For now, okay. But I’m not through with King here. Not if half the LEOs in Texas try to stop me. Not by a goddamn Oklahoma mile!”

Duggan sucked in his breath, let the tension dissipate a bit, then glanced around the table, eyebrows raised inquisitively. “Any further comments?”

[kio]

I get annoyed by this too, so I often just include some actions as shown above that aren't dialogue or, if it's only two people, drop the "said" "asked" "butted" parts and just have new paragraphs. This is an often used convention to help break up the monotony and it seems to still work without losing readers.

[moderntimes]

Correct. If it's just two people, the need for "said" is only there occasionally, maybe about every 4th or 5th paragraph, just to set the reader on firm ground.

[Norma_Rudolph]

I too get annoyed trying to keep multiple conversationalists strait. Moderntimes' examples are pretty much the sort of thing I result to as well. A little action helps to move the story along and keep it from sounding like talking heads or a boring phone conversation. It's a great opportunity to let reader know a little more about your character too. Challenging, but well worth the effort. Another tool I have heard of using but am not as good at is to make your characters so unique that what they say implies who is speaking.

[moderntimes]

Dialogue differences in various characters is requisite anyway, but you've got to be careful to not use dialect (frowned on these days and it's always been annoying to read anyway) and to not be overdone with slang or personalized speech patterns. It's very tricky.

My protagonist is highly educated, not at all the stereotypical private eye, and he mostly speaks quite well, although he of course also uses slang like anybody. And his best pal Sgt. Meierhoff is also smart and educated, so they have nearly the same vocabulary and both use literary allusions to Shakespeare and others. Capt. Duggan is less erudite and curses more.

I had a very difficult section in one chapter. The PI and his pals go to a private club run by an Hispanic gang and roust out the patrons, and interrogate one of them. He goes back and forth, Spanish and English, and slang too. So I had to work that in, allow for English translation for the readers but not make it intrusive. I'd paste the section but it's full of obscenities.

[Norma_Rudolph]

I agree that dialect and speech patterns can be very annoying. What I was trying to get at was more ethereal and very hard to do. In fact I can't at the moment even think of a good example. It's more a sense of personality than a way of speaking. Wish I could give an example but it's something which has to be built up to in the book before it works. You have to know the characters so well that you can almost hear them. Scarlet O'Hara comes to mind with "I'll think about that tomorrow." But that's probably more because it has been quoted so much. I can hear her languid tones every time I read her statement.

[moderntimes]

When attempting to set particular speech patterns in a character's dialogue, I try not to make it obvious but rather subtle, otherwise it's annoying. Here's another example from my new novel -- the interchange between an Hispanic crime boss Julio Cardozo (slang name Julie Cards) and my private eye. Cardozo is older and has learned good English but it's stylized and a bit stiff. As I said before, it's very tricky to make a conversation sound realistic -- my novel isn't a crime parody and is instead very realistic -- and yet provide the reader with texture and rhythm of each character. A thin line to walk. Anyway, see if you can get the "feel" of the two characters here:

I knew he didn’t pull me into his office to complain about a headache, so I sat quietly and allowed him to gather his thoughts.

“Do you know of Barrio Colombia?” he asked.

“Yes. BC for short, gang affiliated with MS-13. Having problems?”

“We are.” Cardozo frowned. “As you know, we are taking the family business legitimate. Fifth Ward Apaches are no longer.”

I couldn’t help grinning briefly, hearing the name of Julie Cards’ old gang.

Cardozo joined me in the humor, an embarrassed cough. “My choice, Apaches. I wanted a name that sounded fierce.” He shrugged. “I was fourteen.”

I guessed about his concern. “And BC is working to take over your old territories?”

“Yes. And take over businesses. Car repair shops, parts stores, gas stations.”

“How do you mean, take over?”

“Some history first, my friend,” he said, leaning back in his chair, tenting his fingers. “When we began, we were, ah, fencing stolen tires, rims, radios, selling them to small shops in the neighborhood. The shop owners would use them for the customers, sell at a low price, and everyone would be happy.”

“Except for the people who found their cars sitting on the frame.”

Cardozo smiled, shrugged. “As is said, you have to break eggs.”

“So you built up your business, more inventory?”

“Yes. And then we invested in the shops. If the owner was behind in his rent or loan, we would take over the financing, allow him to stay in business.”

“Loan sharking?”

He grimaced. “No! We charged a lower rate than even the banks. We helped our neighbors, Mitch.”

“All right. I understand.”

Cardozo continued. “We grew larger. We invested in restaurants, bars, clothing stores, groceries, shops of all types.”

“So in truth, much of your business has been legal for a long time anyway.”

“Yes. There were, ah, contests for territory and that often brought trouble. But we did not seek it out.”

“And you’re now restoring these businesses to their original owners?”

“And their families. You understand, Mitch, in the barrio, many places are owned by the same family for generations.”

“So how is the other gang causing trouble?”

Cardozo gazed at the ceiling and ticked off a list on his fingertips. “Arson, threats, blackmail, damage to the stores, robbing them every payday. There are many ways.”

“Let me see. During this transition, things are upset and difficult, and BC is working against you, taking advantage of the changing times.”

“Exactly.”

“But how can I help?”

Cardozo smiled cannily. “You have friends with the police.”