His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman

[blushingmilk]

This has got to be my favourite series of all time, followed closely by C. S Lewis' Narnia chronicles.

I was incredibly disappointed in the movie 'The Golden Compass'. Besides pandering to Christian middle America they didn't even turn up to watch the movie anyway, judging by the low ticket sales. And I hated its 'Disney' approach - more adults than children love this book! Ridiculous. They should have done it true to the storyline and to the deeper meaning.

I read somewhere that whether they do the next two books in the series (The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass) will depend on the ticket sales, but I think they're doing them anyway, for some unknown reason. i dont want them to if they do it the same way!!

Who's with me in petitioning New Line Cinemas not to stuff it up again??? We must band together, and FIGHT!!

[saracen77]

I have just finished all three, read as a kind of challenge to myself.

Seems that people who have read these fall into one of two categories, loved it, or left you cold.

Unfortunately, it really did leave me cold. I would be interested to hear a bit more about why you loved them so much.

I did enjoy the bears. I thought that the bear philosophy, and the message I took from the ultimate defeat of the fake king, was about the best part of these books. I read that whole struggle as, you must be true to yourself, and your nature, or ultimately you will fail. I could relate to that.

Unfortunately, the rest of the first book left me a little confused. I had no reference to where I was or what timeline I was in. Many things needed to be answered sooner than they actually were. I say this was a challenge to myself, because if I hadn't of taken the challenge, I wouldn't even have bothered to try books two and 3, because of the complete lack of any grounding in book one.

There were a couple of other things that worried me, especially as I think I was looking at these as a preview to letting my kids have them. I don't usually vet things, but so many people have given so many mixed messages from them that I thought I would see what all the fuss was about. I think some of my problems with them may stem from that very confusing purpose. I was seeing things with an adult perspective and hoping that I really didn't see what I thought I did, and hoped the kids wouldn't see it either.... Confused waffle. Sorry.

Anyway, please, I would like to hear your thoughts on why you loved them so much, see if I can get a different perspective.

[Mr. Pessimistic]

There were a couple of other things that worried me, especially as I think I was looking at these as a preview to letting my kids have them. I don't usually vet things, but so many people have given so many mixed messages from them that I thought I would see what all the fuss was about. I think some of my problems with them may stem from that very confusing purpose. I was seeing things with an adult perspective and hoping that I really didn't see what I thought I did, and hoped the kids wouldn't see it either.... Confused waffle. Sorry.

What things would that be? Anything to do with the controversy we saw in the media prior to the movie being released?

Mr. P.

[blushingmilk]

Dear Saracen -

I'm going to try to explain myself as succinctly as possible - it sounds to me as if you're a little confused as to the 'point' of the books.

If your children are 9 years or up (around that age, im sure you can judge the maturity and reading level of your particular children more wisely than I) then I definitely recommend that they are old enough to read them. Maybe if they haven't read Harry Potter - get them onto those first, then Chronicles of Narnia, then these ones and they should be set to make that progression.

I know there's all this hoopla about it being against christianity etc etc, but I think what Pullman is trying to say is that a secular existence is not so bad- if thats what you choose. The books are all about 'free will'- I think Pullman was trying to highlight how dominating, manipulative and controlling religion CAN be if you allow it to be...but surely anyone reading these books can make that decision for themselves, and they won't be 'swayed' if they're of the christian faith, for example, but are equally understanding of the limitations of fundamentalist religions, which includes fundamentalist christianity.

If you've read The Chronicles of Narnia, one of the big problems Pullman had with the books was that he felt C.S. Lewis was too controlling in enforcing the Christian religion through loose metaphor, and also that he was incredibly sexist, particularly in The Last Battle and dealing with Susan as not allowed to enter Narnia again because she was into 'lipstick' etc. What His Dark Materials aims to do, in a way, is to gently lead readers into the arena of free will, or showing that both sides of an argument have valid points when they believe in something beneficial (good intentions).

Pullman's major influences in writing His Dark Materials were Paradise Lost by John Milton and William Blake's poetry, particularly Songs of innocence and Songs of Experience. I don't know if you have read these pieces, but on the chance that you may not have, I noticed that he used William Blake as inspiration for the 'coming-of-age' bit of the story with the character of Lyra and Will, kind of like Alice in Alice and Wonderland. Paradise Lost is the story of the dark battle between 'good and evil', and God casting the devil out of heaven, but it is from the Devil's perspective.

It's not as if Pullman is a satanist (far from it) but he uses the devil perspective in His Dark Materials to emphasise that nothing is wholly good or wholly evil, and that the best choices in life are based on a balancing of perspectives to make an informed decision about what YOU choose, based on informed reasoning as well as your own gut instinct.

Children are actually quite aware of things that adults think they are aware of, they just dont know how to communicate this knowledge until they begin to move into the adolescent and later stages of life.


You can view Lyra having feelings (love) for Will as 'Sin', or you can view it as the necessary break from innocence moving into 'experience'.

Pullman's His Dark Materials also promotes tolerance for gender - Lyra as the protagonist, when usually for an adventure novel there has to be a male lead. He also turns fairy tales on their head by painting witches as wise, beautiful, strong women, rather than old hags - which is really, when you think about it, a construct by men to say that old age and smarts are evil and will make you bitter and twisted.

It further challenges certain ideas about love encompassing all types - it might be strange to view two male angels falling in love with each other, for those who view homosexuality as 'wrong', but for children - who havent been fed these preconceptions of 'evil' and 'wrong' would see nothing wrong with the pair. The only time at which children would feel scared or sickened was if it was a violent love in some way, which it isn't. Pullman writes about it beautifully.

The Polar Bears: I'm glad you liked them - it rides on that idea of narnia's talking beasts, that animals are noble creatures, but, for example, when Iorek eats the heart of the man, it teaches the reader about racial/ cultural tolerance.
What I mean is, because Pullman makes the bear three- dimensional - gives him feelings of rage, pride and loyalty to Lyra and to his land and his people, it makes him more 'human' for the reader. So, by the time he eats the heart, we dont see it as 'savage' or 'brutal' in terms of 'wrong' - the reader is expected to understand that Iorek just has practices, rituals or traditions that are very different from ours, but no better or worse. The battle between the bears is a little gory with the jaw smacked off, but if kids can handle psycho Voldemort and basilisks, they should be able to handle this.


I think its interesting that you say "so many people have mixed messages of them", because if you are referring to the people who were trying hard to halt the movie's release - many of them had not even read the books in their totality (I'd like to say all but im not going to be like them and make harsh generalisations), and they certainly hadn't read Paradise Lost and William Blake's songs of innocence and experience - because if they had, they wouldve realised that all Pullman is saying is: "Use your head AND you heart in making a decision that's right for YOU" and "be careful that you're not carried away by the idea of something and destroy people just to attain that 'perfection' idea because you think it is holy" (fundamentalist religions).


Pullman's work is actually more like the Chronicles of Narnia than he cares to think, I believe. And that's why I like it


If you'd like something I've written here to be explained more clearly, or you have other questions or you disagree with something I've said, I'm all ears!!

[saracen77]

Thank you!

If you don't hear from me for a couple of days, it's because I'm thinking, and re reading some bits.

I will be with you shortly!

[saracen77]

OK, I had a think, and came up with this. My apologies if it doesn't make sense, but most of it is just random though...

Thanks for your response. First of all, the mixed message I was referring to was a little bit of the pre-launch hoohah, both sides were going at it in the media, fairly hard to miss! Bit I was also going by the dozen or so people I know who has either said “yay” or “nay” when these have been mentioned. I will say now, that I am Christian, and majority of the people both recommending and disliking were also from that group, one of the advocates for the series being my parish priest, so no religious bias in my initial impressions!

I fully got the “free will” message. I had no problem with that, and enjoyed it throughout. Religion can be manipulative, and I accept that message. The church that he created in his world was one of the worst case scenarios I could have imagined and would probably be right there with Will and Lyra if every church system were the same, with the same amount of power. A prime example of why the church and the state should be separate.

I had some issues with the maturity of his target audience in a couple of places. The first was the scene at the end of The Subtle Knife, just before Mrs Coulter kills the older man (apologies, his name escapes me). As an adult, with probably an over active imagination, I read far more into that scene than I hope a child would. I would hope that the innocence of a child would not see that scene quite so graphically as I played it in my own head, especially making the connection with what the daemons were supposed to be representing.

The second place was Lyra and Will’s “awakening”? I don’t really know how to view that. If you just view as emotional without actions, then I still find it disturbing that children so young should be making the transition to that kind of love. I have no opposition to sibling or parental love, deep friendship, but the kind of love that describes them as sacrificing the rest of their lives for, I feel is far too early to be made at their young age. It disturbs me that the innocence of childhood has been broken down at such a young age.

I haven’t read Paradise lost, but have forayed into Innocence and Experience on occasion, although a good few years ago, so I’m very rusty! Again, coming of age tales I have no problem with. It’s just all seems too early to be making those kinds of decisions. Although, on the flip side, there are many children, who through dire circumstance don’t have the luxury of hanging on to their childhoods.

Going back a point (or two, sorry, I think I am making myself dizzy here, so apologies if I take you with me!) I have read Narnia, and completely failed to read Susan’s expulsion as sexist. I equated it with the childlike innocence and trust that the situation would require, simply being washed away by the trappings of adulthood. I saw this as Susan’s desire to grow up quickly and move on, and in the process lost her the ability to believe in Narnia, and to gain access.

The angels didn’t bother me. Again we all have free will and love is universal. I did wonder if he was going for the shock value a little bit, with the church holding these images so close to it’s chest, then throwing in the curve ball, but I can also see they were an integral part of his love descriptions. Only the cynic in me thinks he might have been playing to the crowd with those two.

I think what left me wanting from the ending of these books, is that it was so terribly empty. I fully support the message of “look after the here and now”, but have severe difficulties with the “because there is nothing else” addendum. It made the struggle seem so pointless. And, I’m fully aware that this opinion is coloured by my religious tendencies, and I can laugh at myself for it, but the image of two children ripped apart, building a life, just to tell a story to be allowed to disappear, is infinitely sad to me.

I can also see your point, use both your head and your heart when making your decisions. A good piece of advice to anyone, regardless of their beliefs!

I think I find it so hard to fit into this book, because I don’t fit into either ends of the spectrum he is portraying. My comfort zone is neither secularism nor fundamentalism, and this series sits balanced over these two groups.