Free Will

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 19 Mar 2021, 18:36

Mtibza eM wrote: ↑19 Mar 2021, 11:12
cd20 wrote: ↑18 Mar 2021, 17:02
Mtibza eM wrote: ↑18 Mar 2021, 11:19

First of all, let me inform you that I am an agnostic. I simply believe that God existence is unknowable and can never be known. Yes, there is a creator out there, but not the one who is described in all of these major religions' Scriptures. We were all created to live and die, that's the end of it. No hell, no heaven. No God watching over us—nothing!
I understand your point of view and will say that we will have to agree to disagree. I am sorry if I offended you, that was certainly not my intention. I do believe in God and I believe He is the creator of all, and I do believe in heaven and hell. I guess I misunderstood your comment when you said, "if we live under His dictation, then we wouldn't be sinning in the first place." I assumed the "His" was God and if not, who are we sinning against? And how do you define sin if you don't believe in God and the Bible? Or, when someone does something "wrong" then that is the sinning? Seriously just curious and trying to process it.
Sorry I sounded like I was offended, it wasn't my intention. Yeas, my "His" on that comment meant God. God of those who believe in Him, like you, for instance. For a person like me who doesn't believe in God, obviously there is no sinning. So in my world sin doesn't exist, only what's wrong. When someone is doing something wrong, s/he's doing something that is just that—wrong. If we human beings don't punish him/her, then there is no God who'll punish that person.

Thank you for clarifying your points

I get what you are saying. I think the nice thing is that we can have differing opinions, I guess that is part of the point of free will as well, the ability to think and speak for yourself without having to believe everything that another person believes in.

María Andrea Fernández Sepúlveda · 19 Mar 2021, 20:07

cd20 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2021, 18:52 The authors explain that the reason everything looks like it happened naturally over a long period of time is "Because if it were obvious that the world had been created in six days, there would be no free will, no way to doubt the existence of the Creator. God is hidden so that we can function as human beings with free will." What do you think of this? Do you agree or disagree? Why?

Even if it were so obvious, there would be discernment among humans. Maybe about who is this God or how are we supposed to venerate Him. Then, there would still be space for free will. Assuming, as most Christians do, that this is a perfect God, why does He get a pass on lying? Isn't being truthful one of the commandments?

Minerva Pregheira · Post by **Minerva Pregheira** » 20 Mar 2021, 09:03

I agree with the author in this case, I am not particularly religious but for me to be able to come to the conclusions I have come up with. It was only through having the space to think freely and decide based on the lengths or limitations of my belief rather than live in a predetermined world.

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 20 Mar 2021, 10:17

Lunastella wrote: ↑19 Mar 2021, 20:07
cd20 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2021, 18:52 The authors explain that the reason everything looks like it happened naturally over a long period of time is "Because if it were obvious that the world had been created in six days, there would be no free will, no way to doubt the existence of the Creator. God is hidden so that we can function as human beings with free will." What do you think of this? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
Even if it were so obvious, there would be discernment among humans. Maybe about who is this God or how are we supposed to venerate Him. Then, there would still be space for free will. Assuming, as most Christians do, that this is a perfect God, why does He get a pass on lying? Isn't being truthful one of the commandments?

I agree that there would be discernment among humans and free will. I am not sure what you mean by, "why does He get a pass on lying? Isn't being truthful one of the commandments?" Where is God not being truthful?

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 20 Mar 2021, 10:27

Minerva Pregheira wrote: ↑20 Mar 2021, 09:03 I agree with the author in this case, I am not particularly religious but for me to be able to come to the conclusions I have come up with. It was only through having the space to think freely and decide based on the lengths or limitations of my belief rather than live in a predetermined world.

So, you agree that we have free will? Do you believe that God is hidden so we can have that free will? I know you said you are not particularly religious, so I do understand you might not believe in God.

Minerva Pregheira · Post by **Minerva Pregheira** » 20 Mar 2021, 10:57

I do think the argument holds substance. yes, I do not believe in God but if he were to exist as i assume he does in your eyes then yes it is qualifiable that his hidden nature is for you to either chose him or not. As far as how far that free will extends is limited by practice and expectation of religious human communities with an ingrained sense of entitlement in regards to the choice everyone should have.

María Andrea Fernández Sepúlveda · 20 Mar 2021, 11:48

cd20 wrote: ↑20 Mar 2021, 10:17
Lunastella wrote: ↑19 Mar 2021, 20:07
cd20 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2021, 18:52 The authors explain that the reason everything looks like it happened naturally over a long period of time is "Because if it were obvious that the world had been created in six days, there would be no free will, no way to doubt the existence of the Creator. God is hidden so that we can function as human beings with free will." What do you think of this? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
Even if it were so obvious, there would be discernment among humans. Maybe about who is this God or how are we supposed to venerate Him. Then, there would still be space for free will. Assuming, as most Christians do, that this is a perfect God, why does He get a pass on lying? Isn't being truthful one of the commandments?
I agree that there would be discernment among humans and free will. I am not sure what you mean by, "why does He get a pass on lying? Isn't being truthful one of the commandments?" Where is God not being truthful?

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant if He was intentionally deceiving us by leaving, let's say "red herrings" that make us believe the earth was not created the way the Bible says it does. It's all hypothetical, I'm not saying God is deceitful.

Maddie Atkinson · Post by **Maddie Atkinson** » 20 Mar 2021, 12:49

cd20 wrote: ↑20 Mar 2021, 10:17
Lunastella wrote: ↑19 Mar 2021, 20:07
cd20 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2021, 18:52 The authors explain that the reason everything looks like it happened naturally over a long period of time is "Because if it were obvious that the world had been created in six days, there would be no free will, no way to doubt the existence of the Creator. God is hidden so that we can function as human beings with free will." What do you think of this? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
Even if it were so obvious, there would be discernment among humans. Maybe about who is this God or how are we supposed to venerate Him. Then, there would still be space for free will. Assuming, as most Christians do, that this is a perfect God, why does He get a pass on lying? Isn't being truthful one of the commandments?
I agree that there would be discernment among humans and free will. I am not sure what you mean by, "why does He get a pass on lying? Isn't being truthful one of the commandments?" Where is God not being truthful?

Hey pal! I think they are referring to the world being created in six days - why would God make things look old if they aren't, surely in that way He is lying? I think anyway

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 20 Mar 2021, 18:06

Maddie Atkinson wrote: ↑20 Mar 2021, 12:49
cd20 wrote: ↑20 Mar 2021, 10:17
Lunastella wrote: ↑19 Mar 2021, 20:07

Even if it were so obvious, there would be discernment among humans. Maybe about who is this God or how are we supposed to venerate Him. Then, there would still be space for free will. Assuming, as most Christians do, that this is a perfect God, why does He get a pass on lying? Isn't being truthful one of the commandments?
I agree that there would be discernment among humans and free will. I am not sure what you mean by, "why does He get a pass on lying? Isn't being truthful one of the commandments?" Where is God not being truthful?
Hey pal! I think they are referring to the world being created in six days - why would God make things look old if they aren't, surely in that way He is lying? I think anyway

Ah, okay. Maybe? So possible deception of making things look older than they are? I think things look old because of the abuse and wear and tear on the world. The more wear and tear on something the older it looks, but that is just my thought. I don't know.

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 20 Mar 2021, 18:09

Lunastella wrote: ↑20 Mar 2021, 11:48
cd20 wrote: ↑20 Mar 2021, 10:17
Lunastella wrote: ↑19 Mar 2021, 20:07

Even if it were so obvious, there would be discernment among humans. Maybe about who is this God or how are we supposed to venerate Him. Then, there would still be space for free will. Assuming, as most Christians do, that this is a perfect God, why does He get a pass on lying? Isn't being truthful one of the commandments?
I agree that there would be discernment among humans and free will. I am not sure what you mean by, "why does He get a pass on lying? Isn't being truthful one of the commandments?" Where is God not being truthful?
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant if He was intentionally deceiving us by leaving, let's say "red herrings" that make us believe the earth was not created the way the Bible says it does. It's all hypothetical, I'm not saying God is deceitful.

That makes sense and I don't believe that is what God would be doing...but obviously we were not there when He did it, but He wouldn't go against His nature by being deceitful...you were right when you said being truthful is one of the commandments and He wouldn't break His own commandment. I did not think you were saying He is deceitful, but I did want further clarification as to what you meant. Thank you for clarifying your comments

RHD · Post by **RHD** » 22 Mar 2021, 04:12

I totally agree. Free will is a crucial part of human existence. The leaders we see and can contact deny us free will, at least to some extent. God, on the other hand, allows His creation to choose for themselves. This way, the ones who choose freely - meaning they have free will - get to reap the full benefits, but those who don't suffer the consequences.

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 22 Mar 2021, 13:26

RHD wrote: ↑22 Mar 2021, 04:12 I totally agree. Free will is a crucial part of human existence. The leaders we see and can contact deny us free will, at least to some extent. God, on the other hand, allows His creation to choose for themselves. This way, the ones who choose freely - meaning they have free will - get to reap the full benefits, but those who don't suffer the consequences.

That is an interesting way of looking at it. Those around us do tend to deny us full free will, starting with our parents when we are young! Our leaders, especially recently, have taken away some of our free will, as do bosses, teachers, etc.

zulfiyya · Post by **zulfiyya** » 22 Mar 2021, 15:05

I believe that it's easy to say something exists but that we just can't see it because that thing is hidden. That explanation can be used to justify the existence of anything. Unicorns exist but we don't know about them because they are hidden. It is a very human thing to come up with metaphysical ideas such as God. The more we explore human psychology, the more evidence we have that metaphysical concepts are just the work of our human brains exploring abstract ideas and not necessarily how the world really is. That's why there are so many different religions and ideas for how the world is and not all of them have a god (Buddhism for example).

The idea that God exists but is just hidden so that we can have our own free will is just another metaphysical idea created by a human brain that likes to explore abstractions.

Menace Crypto · Post by **Menace Crypto** » 23 Mar 2021, 00:11

I don't agree with the author's point of view on the six days of creation, but I think I somewhat agree with the opinion that he keeps himself hidden thereby not interfering to enable us have free will.

Wy_Bertram · Post by **Wy_Bertram** » 23 Mar 2021, 02:33

I definitely think God does not reveal himself to allow for will. You only need to look at history to envision what would happen if any ruler was imposed on humanity. Our ability to decide for ourselves is our defining factor, and it would be against our nature to have everything set out before us. Though, I know a lot of people would be relieved to get a definitive answer.