Free Will

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 17 Mar 2021, 09:34

D reviewer wrote: ↑13 Mar 2021, 13:13 God gave us Free Will to choose and decide for ourselves what we want. And it has nothing to do with us not being able to see him.
Remember Adam and Eve fellowship with God daily in the garden, yet when they were tested, God didn't take away their freedom to decide for themselves whether to eat the forbidden fruit or not. He was there, yet they accepted it anyway.

You have a very valid point. God did not take away Adam and Eve's ability to have free will when they sinned. Your point about God being there anyway (physically present) and they chose to sin anyway also validates your point that free will does not have to do with our ability to see God or not. You explained this really well and I agree with your points, I appreciate your perspective. I think it is interesting to point out that while God did not take away their free will, He did take away their ability to get back in the garden and make the same mistake twice. He also punished them in other ways for their disobedience too.

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 17 Mar 2021, 09:38

Jenniferg_1105 wrote: ↑13 Mar 2021, 21:47 Free will is truly free if you have to rely completely on faith to follow God’s will. I feel it has to be completely up to the individual to decide what path they want to take. Hard evidence might sway many people’s actions.

I am not sure I understand your explanation. Are you saying that we only have free will if we believe in God? And, "I feel it has to be completely up to the individual to decide what path they want to take."-Isn't this the very definition of free will? That we choose what path we take? If we do not choose then is it really free will? And, what do you mean by "Hard evidence might sway many people's action?" The hard evidence might sway people to believe in free will? Or what? I am not challenging you, I am seriously trying to understand what you are saying.

63tty · Post by **63tty** » 17 Mar 2021, 10:38

cd20 wrote: ↑07 Mar 2021, 14:34
PeterRabitt20 wrote: ↑07 Mar 2021, 10:39 So that we can function as humans without seeing God, seems to resonate. Some drivers speed through a red light if they don't see a cop, but when they do they slow down. I agree that humans have free will (unlike a tree, for instance, it doesn't walk around if it doesn't like its spot.) That free will makes us more accountable—I guess— so the author might be on to something.
This is an excellent illustration!! I had not thought of it like that, but it is so true!!! I am glad we have free will or we would all be exactly alike, which would make for a very boring existence. Thank you for your great illustration.

I agree. That illustration was actually on point. If God did reveal himself we would be merely puppets. Doing things for the sake of approval from Him. It would be chaos. I think I would be depressed most of the time worrying about my image in Gods eyes.

63tty · Post by **63tty** » 17 Mar 2021, 10:45

Heidadela wrote: ↑07 Mar 2021, 13:39 I think the reason why earth looks older is because of sin. On the subject of free will, I do agree that we are given the 'free will' to act accordingly. However, I do not think the mystery of God is connected to the free will at all. The reason why we have free will is because God is not a tyrant, as the serpent accused Him before being thrown out of heaven. He is a just God and the only way to expose the serpent is by allowing us to choose right from wrong. Love for God has to be the basis of all we do, not compulsion.

Interesting point. I don't think the author meant it was exclusively the only reason but part of it. I agree God is not a tyrant and all but is that not kind of a general explanation for basically everything. Like if anyone challenges you on something regarding God and the Bible, you could simply say it is because God is not a tyrant. But if you give free will as an explanation of why God does not reveal Himself, the challenging party might actually be compelled to believe that more than the tyrant view of things.

Mvictoria · Post by **Mvictoria** » 17 Mar 2021, 10:59

I found some parts of this book contradictory. At first, it seems like the authors are arguing for a literal interpretation of the Biblical "day," but later they argue that one day is 7,000 years. I think their argument about why God chose to keep his identity a secret is a good reason. I believed it would make sense, even though I disagree with the creationist idea of the age of the universe being about 6,000 years old. I think God chose to keep his identity a secret so that we would be able to have faith and choices. If God were to reveal himself literally, we would lose the ability to have faith, because we would be able to have empirical facts to back up our beliefs.

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 17 Mar 2021, 13:15

Mtibza eM wrote: ↑14 Mar 2021, 03:19 Yes, I agree with the author. if we live under His dictation, then we wouldn't be sinning in the first place.

So you agree that we have free will, but do you agree that God is hidden so that we would have free will? Do you have any other thoughts on that? I agree that if we did not have free will we would not sin in the first place, although some people do not agree with that. I have heard some say that we do not have free will at all and I cannot understand that reasoning.

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 17 Mar 2021, 13:22

Krienkie wrote: ↑14 Mar 2021, 12:05 I agree with the statement. I believe that God created the earth in 6 days and that in it's mystery it is a miracle and is a sign of His godly power. Without the miracles and unbelievable things that He did, how would humans believe in a higher power?

I like the way you phrased "I believe that God created the earth in 6 days and that in its mystery it is a miracle and is a sign of His godly power." I think that's an excellent way of explaining that, it is a sign of His power and a miracle as well. I also believe that we have free will and know that others disagree with that. I believe in God and His miracles, but not everyone believes in a higher power, so I am not sure how they would account for His miracles and creation in six days.

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 17 Mar 2021, 13:26

63tty wrote: ↑10 Mar 2021, 01:30
cd20 wrote: ↑07 Mar 2021, 14:27
63tty wrote: ↑07 Mar 2021, 01:34 I somewhat agree, the author(s) has a point there even though I don't agree with the six days. That reasoning compels me to believe but still can't help but think of how advanced we have become, technology-wise. It could not have been done in a few thousand years. Mostly I do believe the true reason that God does not reveal himself is due to free will.
I do agree with six days, but I know not everyone does. I am thankful we do have free will, otherwise, we would all think the same, act the same, be the same, and what a boring world that would be!
Yeah, it would be boring indeed. Not to mention the pressure to be perfect that would be there. Considering the pressure that is already there currently.

I know that I will never be perfect and I do not live under a pressure to be perfect. I do the best I can with what I have been given, but I would drive myself crazy if I was trying to reach the unattainable goal of perfection.

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 17 Mar 2021, 13:31

Mvictoria wrote: ↑17 Mar 2021, 10:59 I found some parts of this book contradictory. At first, it seems like the authors are arguing for a literal interpretation of the Biblical "day," but later they argue that one day is 7,000 years. I think their argument about why God chose to keep his identity a secret is a good reason. I believed it would make sense, even though I disagree with the creationist idea of the age of the universe being about 6,000 years old. I think God chose to keep his identity a secret so that we would be able to have faith and choices. If God were to reveal himself literally, we would lose the ability to have faith, because we would be able to have empirical facts to back up our beliefs.

I also found the book to be contradictory and at times it seemed hard to understand where the author was going. I think part of God's mystery is whether or not they were six literal days or was one day a thousand years and we can spend from here to the End times and never figure it out. Why? Because we were never meant to. I think your perspective "I think God chose to keep his identity a secret so that we would be able to have faith and choices. If God were to reveal himself literally, we would lose the ability to have faith, because we would be able to have empirical facts to back up our beliefs" is interesting.

Laura Britos · Post by **Laura Britos** » 17 Mar 2021, 14:24

cd20 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2021, 18:52 The authors explain that the reason everything looks like it happened naturally over a long period of time is "Because if it were obvious that the world had been created in six days, there would be no free will, no way to doubt the existence of the Creator. God is hidden so that we can function as human beings with free will." What do you think of this? Do you agree or disagree? Why?

I am a firm believer that there is so pre conceived path for us to follow, perhaps because we have certain events to face or things to do (call it karma or whatever you believe in). Therefore, we might have free will but to an extent. Everything we do happens because of something, to what extent are we the owners or our lives? That is something that we might never find out. Truly an interesting discussion.

Mtibza eM · Post by **Mtibza eM** » 18 Mar 2021, 11:19

cd20 wrote: ↑17 Mar 2021, 13:15
Mtibza eM wrote: ↑14 Mar 2021, 03:19 Yes, I agree with the author. if we live under His dictation, then we wouldn't be sinning in the first place.
So you agree that we have free will, but do you agree that God is hidden so that we would have free will? Do you have any other thoughts on that? I agree that if we did not have free will we would not sin in the first place, although some people do not agree with that. I have heard some say that we do not have free will at all and I cannot understand that reasoning.

First of all, let me inform you that I am an agnostic. I simply believe that God existence is unknowable and can never be known. Yes, there is a creator out there, but not the one who is described in all of these major religions' Scriptures. We were all created to live and die, that's the end of it. No hell, no heaven. No God watching over us—nothing!

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 18 Mar 2021, 17:02

Mtibza eM wrote: ↑18 Mar 2021, 11:19
cd20 wrote: ↑17 Mar 2021, 13:15
Mtibza eM wrote: ↑14 Mar 2021, 03:19 Yes, I agree with the author. if we live under His dictation, then we wouldn't be sinning in the first place.
So you agree that we have free will, but do you agree that God is hidden so that we would have free will? Do you have any other thoughts on that? I agree that if we did not have free will we would not sin in the first place, although some people do not agree with that. I have heard some say that we do not have free will at all and I cannot understand that reasoning.
First of all, let me inform you that I am an agnostic. I simply believe that God existence is unknowable and can never be known. Yes, there is a creator out there, but not the one who is described in all of these major religions' Scriptures. We were all created to live and die, that's the end of it. No hell, no heaven. No God watching over us—nothing!

I understand your point of view and will say that we will have to agree to disagree. I am sorry if I offended you, that was certainly not my intention. I do believe in God and I believe He is the creator of all, and I do believe in heaven and hell. I guess I misunderstood your comment when you said, "if we live under His dictation, then we wouldn't be sinning in the first place." I assumed the "His" was God and if not, who are we sinning against? And how do you define sin if you don't believe in God and the Bible? Or, when someone does something "wrong" then that is the sinning? Seriously just curious and trying to process it.

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 18 Mar 2021, 17:08

Ana Victoria2002 wrote: ↑17 Mar 2021, 14:24
cd20 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2021, 18:52 The authors explain that the reason everything looks like it happened naturally over a long period of time is "Because if it were obvious that the world had been created in six days, there would be no free will, no way to doubt the existence of the Creator. God is hidden so that we can function as human beings with free will." What do you think of this? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
I am a firm believer that there is so pre conceived path for us to follow, perhaps because we have certain events to face or things to do (call it karma or whatever you believe in). Therefore, we might have free will but to an extent. Everything we do happens because of something, to what extent are we the owners or our lives? That is something that we might never find out. Truly an interesting discussion.

Your perspective is interesting as well. Could you explain to what extent you believe we have free will? I do agree that everything happens because of something else and you do bring up an interesting question. "To what extent are we the owners of our lives?" I think because I believe in free will that I also believe we do have some control over our lives. However, I also understand there are so many things that are beyond our control as well.

Laura Britos · Post by **Laura Britos** » 19 Mar 2021, 06:08

cd20 wrote: ↑18 Mar 2021, 17:08
Ana Victoria2002 wrote: ↑17 Mar 2021, 14:24
cd20 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2021, 18:52 The authors explain that the reason everything looks like it happened naturally over a long period of time is "Because if it were obvious that the world had been created in six days, there would be no free will, no way to doubt the existence of the Creator. God is hidden so that we can function as human beings with free will." What do you think of this? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
I am a firm believer that there is so pre conceived path for us to follow, perhaps because we have certain events to face or things to do (call it karma or whatever you believe in). Therefore, we might have free will but to an extent. Everything we do happens because of something, to what extent are we the owners or our lives? That is something that we might never find out. Truly an interesting discussion.
Your perspective is interesting as well. Could you explain to what extent you believe we have free will? I do agree that everything happens because of something else and you do bring up an interesting question. "To what extent are we the owners of our lives?" I think because I believe in free will that I also believe we do have some control over our lives. However, I also understand there are so many things that are beyond our control as well.

Sometimes when I make a critical choice I have this instant feeling of fear. Fear in the sense that I do not know if the choices that I have taken and that have brought me to where I am are choices that I made or if thy are my destiny. We live without knowing if we are following our path and destiny, that is not only created by ourselves but also by a bigger universal force. And therefor, do we choose what we want? Or ar we led to believe we want to choose something?

Mtibza eM · Post by **Mtibza eM** » 19 Mar 2021, 11:12

cd20 wrote: ↑18 Mar 2021, 17:02
Mtibza eM wrote: ↑18 Mar 2021, 11:19
cd20 wrote: ↑17 Mar 2021, 13:15

So you agree that we have free will, but do you agree that God is hidden so that we would have free will? Do you have any other thoughts on that? I agree that if we did not have free will we would not sin in the first place, although some people do not agree with that. I have heard some say that we do not have free will at all and I cannot understand that reasoning.
First of all, let me inform you that I am an agnostic. I simply believe that God existence is unknowable and can never be known. Yes, there is a creator out there, but not the one who is described in all of these major religions' Scriptures. We were all created to live and die, that's the end of it. No hell, no heaven. No God watching over us—nothing!
I understand your point of view and will say that we will have to agree to disagree. I am sorry if I offended you, that was certainly not my intention. I do believe in God and I believe He is the creator of all, and I do believe in heaven and hell. I guess I misunderstood your comment when you said, "if we live under His dictation, then we wouldn't be sinning in the first place." I assumed the "His" was God and if not, who are we sinning against? And how do you define sin if you don't believe in God and the Bible? Or, when someone does something "wrong" then that is the sinning? Seriously just curious and trying to process it.

Sorry I sounded like I was offended, it wasn't my intention. Yeas, my "His" on that comment meant God. God of those who believe in Him, like you, for instance. For a person like me who doesn't believe in God, obviously there is no sinning. So in my world sin doesn't exist, only what's wrong. When someone is doing something wrong, s/he's doing something that is just that—wrong. If we human beings don't punish him/her, then there is no God who'll punish that person.