The skeleton

Chris Dutton · Post by **Chris Dutton** » 05 Feb 2015, 17:53

I've got the basics of my story down, about 65000 words, and realise that I'm going to add a lot more with 3d-ing the story for the setting. There's a lot of bulking out I need to do to bring the world alive. and yes, it's not bulking up for the sake of it, I have IDEAS... ho ho.

Is this anywhere normal? If a normal novel is 120k words ish, as a minimum, how much do you normally write, and does this basically end up as your novel with polishing? I still believe I need an extra twist, but that'll arrive, but not to the tune of a couple of dozen thousand words.

moderntimes · Post by **moderntimes** » 05 Feb 2015, 18:43

Actually 120k words is about the top of a book length. Normally a novel runs 60k to 90k. 120k is pretty hefty and you might need to make a very careful evaluation.

When I started on my 2nd novel in the private detective series I'm writing, I found that I was at 100k and kept writing. What I had to understand was that although I had plenty of ideas and words, they were simply too much for a mystery novel. So I trimmed it back and saved it for my 3rd book. And this worked out fine, as I sold the first 2 novels and they were published, and now I'm working with a publisher for the new novel.

Although a novel can grow to 120k words and sometimes more, it may perhaps need trimming or maybe a division into a series of novels. What you need to do is understand that maybe the story you wish to tell is too long for one novel. Perfectly valid.

Maybe you're writing an epic fantasy tale that invokes an imaginary world or culture, which happens a lot in both fantasy and SF. After all, compare this with my own 3 novels, all modern American private detective stories. In mine, since they're meant to be realistic and modern day, I start right away with the story. I don't have to explain how cars work, how cellphones work, how guns shoot. I don't need to explain what homicide cops do or what the general concepts of modern crime or these things are done, how restaurants or bars function. In other words, the modern urban world where I set my novels is a known thing.

But if you're writing a fantasy or SF novel, you also need to explain what the mystic race of Natchos is like, what the kingdom of Premix is like, or how starships work and what zapguns do to someone who gets shot, and so on. If there's a ruling family you need to talk about their background and all how those other things interact.

It's therefore perfectly understandable that a book of this genre might be longer. But if it becomes a labor to read it, if the reader is required to juggle too many princes and orcs or whatever, if the interrelations among all the many characters are too complex, it may be time for a trim job, and some serious thought into making the story into a series of novels, each dealing with a specific set of characters, each of these sets being part of the whole, but each told in a separate novel.

For example, on a smaller stage, my private detective novels are, in accordance with PI tradition, told 1st person. My PI is not the typical hardboiled thuggish stereotype, either. He's very intelligent, highly educated, and makes a fairly nice living in his job. My character's problem is that he's dropped into an abyss of crime and murder that he didn't ask for, and his psyche is trashed by the evil that he encounters. This creates a lot of internal turmoil, leading to drinking and despair. So his entire character goes through a large arc, from being naive to distressed to depressed and then almost suicidal. Well, this human arc is just too large for a single novel, and so I've used 3 novels to show the personal arc my character goes through. Of course I also tell a mystery story at the same time, and the personal anguish of the protagonist and the danger of the mystery cases blend together.

Anyway, I found that the personal story that I want to tell takes a longer arc than one novel. Which is fine. Right now, my character pulled himself out of his morass and by the end of the 3rd book, he seems on the way to recovery.

So... my recommendation is to consider if you're actually writing an epic with perhaps more than one novel. Which is perfectly fine, and far better than a too-bulky standalone book. 120k words is pretty long, just be cautioned. It may be difficult to sell, as that length is right at the top of what is acceptable. And also realize that if you're a new writer, finding a publisher is a hard task regardless. An established author may find an easier sale but harder for a newbie. Perhaps splitting the book in progress in half, making it 90k words, and then cranking out a second book in the series might be more of a smart tactic.

Chris Dutton · Post by **Chris Dutton** » 05 Feb 2015, 19:23

It's a three parter, well, trilogy, really. Steam punk, alternate history thing, that requires some furthering of the current world technology, the reasons for it, and also some pretty rustic politicking. It's not high brow Eric flint type stuff...that goes really deep, but to make all three viable it needs the 'backstory' or forward, whichever, to make it work. I don't think my target, given the story so far, is over the top, it certainly doesn't yet contain extraneous fluff, as I'm trying to stay very conscious of this and focussed. But having a look at similar genres, 120k seems very light...?

moderntimes · Post by **moderntimes** » 05 Feb 2015, 23:26

I don't read fantasy so I cannot really judge the length as appropriate.

I can tell you that for ANY new writer for ANY genre, excess length that appears to be padding or just that the author didn't know when to quit is quickly detected and can be rejected. Each of those 120k words had better be necessary.

Second, you yourself said that you felt the need to ask a question about whether the book needed more bulk or "3D" treatment. It may mean that your inner editor is telling you to consider wrapping things up, and my recommendation is, if you feel that you have a LOT more to write, you maybe better suited for a 2nd sequential novel in the series.

TLGabelman · Post by **TLGabelman** » 06 Feb 2015, 05:27

Depending on the formatting im going to guess this 120K would be between 350-400 pages, correct? I dont often judge a book on length. I typically read books around 400 pages and find especially in a genre that requires a whole world to be envisioned the length is necessary, sometimes I even wish they had written more.

Chris Dutton · Post by **Chris Dutton** » 06 Feb 2015, 05:56

TLGabelman wrote:Depending on the formatting im going to guess this 120K would be between 350-400 pages, correct? I dont often judge a book on length. I typically read books around 400 pages and find especially in a genre that requires a whole world to be envisioned the length is necessary, sometimes I even wish they had written more.

That's where I'm at. There's a lot needs 3ding!

TLGabelman · Post by **TLGabelman** » 06 Feb 2015, 08:35

Not being a writer I cant really give the same advice as moderntimes. He makes so many good points and has learned through his experiences. I can tell you from the perspective of a reader tell the story. If you hit 120K words and more is pressing to be written (im guessing it a nagging sensation) stop looking at the word count. You can always cut back sections or divide your trilogy differently in the end. I have read books where 90% of the book had a good flow only to be let down by the remaining 10%. They seemed to try to cram everything into the last part of the book but the story telling portion of their writing suffered. Or Ive read books where the world was completely fictitious and they had not provided enough detail to allow me to 'see.' A good story doesnt simply end in a specific page range/word count. I think you may be worrying too much...but what do I know. lol.

Theres loads of great reviewers who can read it and then honestly give you their take once it gets to that point.

ALynnPowers · Post by **ALynnPowers** » 06 Feb 2015, 08:41

Chris Dutton wrote:I've got the basics of my story down, about 65000 words, and realise that I'm going to add a lot more with 3d-ing the story for the setting. There's a lot of bulking out I need to do to bring the world alive. and yes, it's not bulking up for the sake of it, I have IDEAS... ho ho.

Is this anywhere normal? If a normal novel is 120k words ish, as a minimum, how much do you normally write, and does this basically end up as your novel with polishing? I still believe I need an extra twist, but that'll arrive, but not to the tune of a couple of dozen thousand words.

You and I have pretty different writing styles, so I am going to be absolutely no help at all here. But the only advice I will give is to stick with what is important to the story. Too many details, no matter how well they bring a fictional setting too life, can often be bogging or misleading. But that's just coming from me. (I'm no one important)

Chris Dutton · Post by **Chris Dutton** » 06 Feb 2015, 09:47

Thanks for all of the advice everyone. I will look at how it's all presented....

moderntimes · Post by **moderntimes** » 06 Feb 2015, 18:25

Formatting of your novel regarding page count is dependent on the style that your publisher chooses -- this is affected by margins, font style, and whether the publisher gives your book hardcover or trade paperback printing. So never do a "page count" because this will differ depending on the formatting that the publisher uses when you sell the book to them. Don't worry about this. Just the word count is all you need to focus on.

Regardless of the genre of the book and its length, if the book drags or is overburdened by too much detail, it may be too long. Remember that we, as authors, often want to "tell all" about the story and we just keep typing and typing and typing when we should quit. It's an easy thing to get us trapped in, our own love of the story overcoming common sense. It therefore helps to sit back and be impartial.