Pride and Prejudice, Jane Austen

[Maud Fitch]

Love reading everyone's opinions on this subject.

Austen is highlighting the fact that in the society of the period there were no options for women outside of marriage.

I agree with Fran; and in such a male dominated society it was deemed acceptable for the master of the house to father a child by the maid servant. Admittedly hushed up but still known. Such double standards!

[Butterbescotch]

@GotThatSwing and FRAN

Thanks. I get it now.

@Fran

I never knew Austen was a maiden

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Questions. *Spoiler*

When Elizabeth visits her uncle and aunt, they decide to go to Pemberley. Why are they allowed to Darcy's Castle without an authority, permission or even introduction? I mean isn't there some sort of security?

When Lady Catherine interviews Elizabeth
"...Are any of your younger sisters out, Miss Bennet?”
“Yes, ma’am, all.”
“All! What, all five out at once? Very odd! And you only the second. The younger ones out before the elder are married! Your younger sisters must be very young?”
“Yes, my youngest is not sixteen. Perhaps she is full young to be much in company. But really, ma’am, I think it would be very hard upon younger sisters that they should not have their share of society and amusement, because the elder may not have the means or inclination to marry early. The last born has as good a right to the pleasures of youth as the first. And to be kept back on such a motive! I think it would not be very likely to promote sisterly affection or delicacy of mind.

What does she mean of "younger sisters out" ?

[Teesie]

Back in those days wealthy peoples homes were just as much tourist atractions as they were homes. Sometimes they would take visitors to tour the house with a guide. Also, sometimes the wealthy didn't want to actually see the people touring their homes so they would have houskeepers to "show" the house when they were away.

As for the second question back then a girl's one purpose in life was to marry and produce heirs for her husband. When young girls reached a certain age they would have what was called a "coming out" party at which they were presenting themselves into society. Basically they were saying "I'm now old enough to be be someones wife" Once she "came out" she could be sought after by eligible men seeking a wife. Typically the oldest daughter "came out" first, once she was engaged or married off, the next oldest would "come out", so on and so forth, down the line from oldest to youngest until they were all married. Here Lady Catherine is shocked to hear that all the Bennett sisters are all "out" at once because that was not the normal way of doing things.

I hope this helps, and I didn't just confuse you more :/

[Melaniep]

As for the second question back then a girl's one purpose in life was to marry and produce heirs for her husband. When young girls reached a certain age they would have what was called a "coming out" party at which they were presenting themselves into society. Basically they were saying "I'm now old enough to be be someones wife" Once she "came out" she could be sought after by eligible men seeking a wife. Typically the oldest daughter "came out" first, once she was engaged or married off, the next oldest would "come out", so on and so forth, down the line from oldest to youngest until they were all married. Here Lady Catherine is shocked to hear that all the Bennett sisters are all "out" at once because that was not the normal way of doing things.

I hope this helps, and I didn't just confuse you more :/

Just to add one thing thing, girls who aren't "out" yet, generally weren't allowed to attend balls or a lot of other society gatherings.

[Butterbescotch]

Thanks, I get it now.

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Question.

When I was reading the book, there is a symbol that reads "Blank Shire" and represented as "----shire". Why is that?

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A portion of Elizabeth's Aunt's Letter

I thought him very sly; he hardly ever mentioned your name. But slyness seems the fashion. Pray forgive me, if I have been very presuming, or at least do not punish me so far as to exclude me from P. I shall never be quite happy till I have been all round the park.

What do she mean by "exclude me from P"? Is it Pemberley?

[Melaniep]

Thanks, I get it now.

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Question.

When I was reading the book, there is a symbol that reads "Blank Shire" and represented as "----shire". Why is that?

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A portion of Elizabeth's Aunt's Letter

I thought him very sly; he hardly ever mentioned your name. But slyness seems the fashion. Pray forgive me, if I have been very presuming, or at least do not punish me so far as to exclude me from P. I shall never be quite happy till I have been all round the park.

What do she mean by "exclude me from P"? Is it Pemberley?

To the first question, I'm not really sure, but Austen does that in many of her books. I'm assuming it's because the county they live in doesn't exist and she didn't want to just make something up?

And to answer your second question, yes. She was shortening Pemberly by just writing P.

[Butterbescotch]

Thanks Melaniep :]

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Questions.

Fitzwilliam Darcy has a cousin named Colonel Fitzwilliam. Does that mean Fitzwilliam is a surname?

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“My fingers,” said Elizabeth, “do not move over this instrument in the masterly manner which I see so many women’s do. They have not the same force or rapidity, and do not produce the same expression. But then I have always supposed it to be my own fault—because I would not take the trouble of practising. It is not that I do not believe my fingers as capable as any other woman’s of superior execution.”

Darcy smiled and said, “You are perfectly right. You have employed your time much better. No one admitted to the privilege of hearing you can think any thing wanting. We neither of us perform to strangers.”

Can you explain the italic words?

[Fran]

Thanks Melaniep :]

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Questions.

Fitzwilliam Darcy has a cousin named Colonel Fitzwilliam. Does that mean Fitzwilliam is a surname?

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“My fingers,” said Elizabeth, “do not move over this instrument in the masterly manner which I see so many women’s do. They have not the same force or rapidity, and do not produce the same expression. But then I have always supposed it to be my own fault—because I would not take the trouble of practising. It is not that I do not believe my fingers as capable as any other woman’s of superior execution.”

Darcy smiled and said, “You are perfectly right. You have employed your time much better. No one admitted to the privilege of hearing you can think any thing wanting. We neither of us perform to strangers.”

Can you explain the italic words?

Yes Fitzwilliam is a surname or family name

In this quote Darcy on the surface is agreeing with Elizabeth in that he says yes you have musical ability but you have not given sufficient attention to practicing to be as proficient as other society women. On the other hand he is also saying that she has employed her time better ... that she has developed a deeper personality & she is not content simply to display an adaquacy at the drawing room skills as expected by society. He is telling her that he appreciates her as much more that a drawing room performer.
He is also subtly showing how alike the both are ... neither is happy to be a 'performing monkey' or to accept the demands of society. He is telling her that he considers her a genuine and sincere person who does not put on a performance and pretend to be other than she is ... unlike other society women.

[Butterbescotch]

Thanks about that Fran. So that conversation explicitly marks how Darcy is fond of Elizabeth.

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Question.

When Eliza is in her aunt and they have visitors.

“I may thank you, Eliza, for this piece of civility. Mr. Darcy would never have come so soon to wait upon me.”

Is the compliment saying that because of Eliza, Darcy have come?

[Evapohler]

Yes, Butterbe, you understand correctly.

The book is rather dense with language, customs, and references that are specific to Victorian England. You might consider watching a movie version to help you "see" what's going on. Though, I have to say, you seem to be doing really well on your own.

[Butterbescotch]

Thanks Evapohler for the reply. I can't post another question since double post isn't enabled even a day or two have been passed.

So that's what they call language like this: Victorian. I kept hearing about that name/term. I heard it was an era, a queen or even a type of literature. I'm quite confused myself.

Actually, I saw the movie first before reading the book however the excitement already died. I kept talking to the book if when Darcy going to propose to Eliza.

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Question:

Is the marriage in 19^st England is the same as the Bennets? I mean Mr Bennet could hardly care for Mrs Bennet and his thoughts or words implies that he is better off without her.

Well, here in our country, we value relationship so much. That if someone breaks up, it really hurts. Our country too has lesser divorce or rate. It's like 1 out of 50 or none at all.

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At the beginning of the novel, Mrs Bennet says our daughters can't meet the visitors (Mr Bingley and Mr. Darcy) if you don't introduced them. Does that mean only the fathers can expose their daughters to suitors?

[Fran]

Thanks about that Fran. So that conversation explicitly marks how Darcy is fond of Elizabeth.

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Question.

When Eliza is in her aunt and they have visitors.

“I may thank you, Eliza, for this piece of civility. Mr. Darcy would never have come so soon to wait upon me.”

Is the compliment saying that because of Eliza, Darcy have come?

Yes indeed Elizabeth's aunt is acknowledging that it is Elizabeth who is the reason for Darcy's visit. 'Wait upon me' means a social visit.
As Evapohler says there were very strict rules of etiquette surrounding who could visit who and at what time and how often etc
Darcy is of a higher social class than Elizabeth's relatives and as such would not be visiting with them. Paying visits was a huge part of the life of the wealthy classes, especially the females who had little else to occupy themselves with ... I'm sure you have noticed in the book how much of the lives of the characters are taken up with visiting and what we would term gossiping.

Butterbescotch if you get an opportunity you should seek out the movie 'Becoming Jane' it starred Anne Hathaway & is a fictionalized account of Jane Austen's early life and IMO highlights a lot of the themes she later brought to her books especially Pride & Prejudice.

[Evapohler]

Butterbe asked: Is the marriage in 19th century England the same as the Bennets? I mean Mr Bennet could hardly care for Mrs Bennet and his thoughts or words implies that he is better off without her.

I believe marriages in 19th century England varied just as they do today, and the marriage between Mr. and Mrs. Bennet is one kind of marriage. My impression while reading the novel was that Mr. Bennet cares for his wife but grew tiresome of the way she makes her daughter's marriage prospects her constant concern. Ironically, Mrs. Bennet can hardly avoid doing anything else because her own future livelihood depends on her finding a good match for at least one of her daughters. Once her husband dies, the estate would be entailed to Mr. Collins, a cousin, because it could not be passed on to the females, and then Mrs. Bennet and any remaining unwed daughters would be at the mercy of Mr. Collins's generosity.

If you are interested in learning more about Victorian society, you should consider reading Tracy Chevalier's novel, Remarkable Creatures. This is an excellent story about Victorian women trying to survive in a male dominated society as scientists in their own right during a time when marriage or a male relative's charity were the only financial means a woman could find.

[Butterbescotch]

@Fran

Thanks for the reply Fran. I never thought paying a visit is really an important social act. Also, thanks for the recommendation. I'll try to look up to it.

@Evapohler

" . . .because her own future livelihood depends on her finding a good match for at least one of her daughters."

Livelihood? How does she makes livelihood out of it?

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Question:

1. Is the Bennet Family a bit rich? I think I read in the last part that they have a servant.

2. Where do the Bennets gain income? Mrs. Bennet is busy gossiping around while Mr. Bennet, most of the time, just sit in his room and read.

3. Why didn't the rest of the Bennet's Family complained or seek intervention on Mrs. Bennet's ill behavior. They have been humiliated a several times already.

[Fran]

@Fran

Thanks for the reply Fran. I never thought paying a visit is really an important social act. Also, thanks for the recommendation. I'll try to look up to it.

@Evapohler

" . . .because her own future livelihood depends on her finding a good match for at least one of her daughters."

Livelihood? How does she makes livelihood out of it?

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Question:

1. Is the Bennet Family a bit rich? I think I read in the last part that they have a servant.

2. Where do the Bennets gain income? Mrs. Bennet is busy gossiping around while Mr. Bennet, most of the time, just sit in his room and read.

3. Why didn't the rest of the Bennet's Family complained or seek intervention on Mrs. Bennet's ill behavior. They have been humiliated a several times already.

Very interesting questions you are raising Butterbescotch ...

1. Are the Bennet family rich? Well it depends on your definition of rich. They would probably be classed as minor in terms of wealth, but they would have been well ahead of the vast majority of the population of England at the time. You have to remember the period the book is set in (first published 1813) that it would not have been unusual to have a servant at that time but the very fact that it is a singular servant says it all. The likes of Darcy, Bingham or Lady Catherine would have numerous servants ... up in the 100's in some of the big landed properties (as Pemberley would have been.) You should also remember that many household servants at that time would have been working literally for their board (food & a bed) they would not be waged staff in the sense we understand it today.

2. Again the Bennets would have had some land ... that being the only really recognised form of wealth in Braitain in this period. They would probably be in terms of our times reasonably large landowners & would have had tenant farmers on their land paying annual rents to Mr Bennett but very minor in comparison to the likes of Darcy etc who were 'landed gentry' with in some cases thousands of acres of land & possibly hundreds of tenants paying rents to them. They would also have been paid rents by people living in villages or towns on their estates. That is how Mr Bennett manages to spend his time reading ... what a life eh?

3. Pure and simply 'she is their mother' and total unquestioned obedience & loyalty to a parent was the norm for children ... especially daughters. This was reinforced by both society and church. Remember the concept of the teenage tantrum hadn't been invented yet!

Hope this helps