Do you think Gary should plead guilty in court?

yomide · Post by **yomide** » 12 Jul 2021, 20:21

SunVixen wrote: ↑11 Jul 2021, 06:01 Technically, it was Gary who killed Michelle. After all, it was his hand that took the knife and killed her.
However, he did not understand what he was doing at this moment. His hand was ruled by Gary from another world. He is as much to blame for this murder as the knife with which Michelle was killed. It is the same as if he committed murder under hypnosis. It would be fair if the judges took this circumstance into account.

I won't say I totally agree to that. In fact, if he used hypnosis as an example of his circumstances, the Jury might turn a blind eye. As hypnosis is not acceptable in court, he can't use that. And if anyone is to blame, it would be Gary of the black line. After all his fantasies came became another version of his reality. In general, Gary is as guilty as he isn't.

yomide · Post by **yomide** » 12 Jul 2021, 20:43

Thabo Sibanda 1 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2021, 10:08 A person is only responsible for actions they decide and commit in a conscious tate of mind. So Gary should not plead guilty by any means since he committed the crime while lucid dreaming.

That is not entirely true I'm afraid. The question is; who would believe him? It happened within 6 seconds and there is a video evidence, if you were one of the witnesses would you say he isn't conscious? I would say he did kill her deliberately intentionally. Why he did? That no one knows.

KELVIN LANGAT · Post by **KELVIN LANGAT** » 13 Jul 2021, 06:09

through reading this other comments I likewise don't figure he ought to concede. I was considering what might I do in his place. Maybe I would feel so horrendous in the wake of seeing the video from the surveillance camera, I would feel regretful all things considered? I envision it would hurt me such a great amount to be decided for such a wrongdoing, I wouldn't have the ability to battle for myself. You're correct - it would be very difficult to demonstrate guiltlessness.

Troy Barnes · Post by **Troy Barnes** » 13 Jul 2021, 09:09

This was a very strong point of contention for me . I felt that the blue line Gary being held responsible for his fiancée's death was a grave injustice and they should have found a way to have black line Gary tried for murder. Blue line Gary should not plead guilty because he's in no way responsible.

Troy Barnes · Post by **Troy Barnes** » 13 Jul 2021, 12:17

Anna Bookowski wrote: ↑06 Jul 2021, 13:19
Troy Barnes wrote: ↑06 Jul 2021, 10:12 Blue line Gary was falsely accused of killing the woman he loved above all. It would be an insult to her memory and an overwhelmingly frustrating incident if he was to plead guilty as he was nothing but an innocent bystander in the accident of Black line Gary's life.
It does seem to be right and I understand your reasoning. But once again, there's a particular paradox introduced in the book and it's based on a quantum physics theory. There's an assumption implied that all the Garys from all the worldlines are the very same person. He was not falsely accused - he did it. The only complication is that he had no intention to do it and he doesn't even remember it. But it doesn't change the fact he killed Michelle, the only thing is he didn't want to. So maybe the solution should be that he should not be legally punished as he already suffers enough.

I suppose when you put it that way it does make sense to punish Gary for Michelle's death. I mean, by all accounts, he did kill her in full view of security cameras and horrified witnesses. No matter that he has no recollection of it, he did do it. So perhaps just out of respect for the sheer injustice he has done to Michelle and her family, he should plead guilty.

yomide · Post by **yomide** » 13 Jul 2021, 20:21

Troy Barnes wrote: ↑13 Jul 2021, 09:09 This was a very strong point of contention for me . I felt that the blue line Gary being held responsible for his fiancée's death was a grave injustice and they should have found a way to have black line Gary tried for murder. Blue line Gary should not plead guilty because he's in no way responsible.

Gary of the blue line truly faced injustice, yes. But I don't see any particular crime Gary of the black line committed. In short, he is also as innocent as he is guilty. As one can't be held accountable for the things they did in their dreams, I don't see a way to bring Gary to trial. Even if they did, he would come out innocent as Michelle is hale and hearty in his worldline.

Anna Bookowski · Post by **Anna Bookowski** » 14 Jul 2021, 04:08

KELVIN LANGAT wrote: ↑13 Jul 2021, 06:09 through reading this other comments I likewise don't figure he ought to concede. I was considering what might I do in his place. Maybe I would feel so horrendous in the wake of seeing the video from the surveillance camera, I would feel regretful all things considered? I envision it would hurt me such a great amount to be decided for such a wrongdoing, I wouldn't have the ability to battle for myself. You're correct - it would be very difficult to demonstrate guiltlessness.

I feel very similar about this all. I'm pretty sure I would feel guilty anyway, and it's highly probable that I would lose my mind after this. I'm not even sure if I would be able to defend myself in light of all the evidence.

Anna Bookowski · Post by **Anna Bookowski** » 14 Jul 2021, 04:12

yomide wrote: ↑12 Jul 2021, 20:21
SunVixen wrote: ↑11 Jul 2021, 06:01 Technically, it was Gary who killed Michelle. After all, it was his hand that took the knife and killed her.
However, he did not understand what he was doing at this moment. His hand was ruled by Gary from another world. He is as much to blame for this murder as the knife with which Michelle was killed. It is the same as if he committed murder under hypnosis. It would be fair if the judges took this circumstance into account.
I won't say I totally agree to that. In fact, if he used hypnosis as an example of his circumstances, the Jury might turn a blind eye. As hypnosis is not acceptable in court, he can't use that. And if anyone is to blame, it would be Gary of the black line. After all his fantasies came became another version of his reality. In general, Gary is as guilty as he isn't.

I agree with @yomide on this one. The paradox is that Gary is and isn't guilty at the same time. Somehow there seems to be no right solution to this issue. It's very hard to comprehend it, especially if we think our usual thinking ways. But I think this is what makes the book so exciting. This is a kind of brain-stretcher!

Anna Bookowski · Post by **Anna Bookowski** » 14 Jul 2021, 04:15

yomide wrote: ↑12 Jul 2021, 19:58
Anna Bookowski wrote: ↑12 Jul 2021, 12:23
marba wrote: ↑11 Jul 2021, 12:12 That's an excellent question! I personally don't think he should plead guilty. The intent is an important factor in a verdict and he was all but willing to hurt Michelle.
It's interesting though thinking that, given the nature of the Multiverse, he certainly pleaded guilty in another line.
Yes! And following the thought, in some of the worldlines, he was pronounced guilty, and in some not. I'm very curious what would be the legal consequences of these different possible outcomes and what impact the different court decisions would have on the future of legal processes in similar cases.
I can't beginning to fathom those impacts. Take the green line for example, he pleaded not guilty and was vindicated. It's not something that happens everyday and given the evidence against him, nothing will remain the same (in terms of legal processes). His case will definitely be used by other criminals to cheat the law.

Totally right. Just imagine that. The law structure would have to be changed. But first, they would have to learn how to recognize the case of actual overtaking by someone from another worldline. How would they even do this? They'd need to have a technology like from Rick and Morty hahaha. And first, the multiverse theory would have to be proven already, not to be only the concept.

Anna Bookowski · Post by **Anna Bookowski** » 14 Jul 2021, 04:21

Judy_Jemutai7 wrote: ↑12 Jul 2021, 19:36 I don't think Gary should plead guilty in court as he committed the murder unconsciously. As a result, the element of intent, which is crucial in the determination of guilt is lacking to complete the offence.

I'm not sure if this is entirely true. As an example think of being under influence of drugs. Maybe you're not even aware that someone drugged you. Let's say that on your way back home from the club, you killed someone. You have no idea you did it, you don't remember it. But there's a street camera and a record of you doing it. So what about the element of intention you're talking about? You committed a murder, no matter if you planned or wanted to do it. Of course, the circumstances should be taken into account by the court, the sentence could not be the same as for a serial cold-blooded killer. But still.

Anna Bookowski · Post by **Anna Bookowski** » 14 Jul 2021, 04:25

Troy Barnes wrote: ↑13 Jul 2021, 09:09 This was a very strong point of contention for me . I felt that the blue line Gary being held responsible for his fiancée's death was a grave injustice and they should have found a way to have black line Gary tried for murder. Blue line Gary should not plead guilty because he's in no way responsible.

For the court to take this line of defense into account, the multiverse theory should be proven first. As long as it's only the concept, it would be very hard for the judge to take it seriously.
The other thing is that no matter which Gary would be sentenced for this murder because all of them are in fact the same person. This is implied by the multiverse theory that is a ground base for the story. But imagine if it would be so simple to just jump from one worldline to another and communicate with each other. I guess the whole balance of the universe would be impacted by this and then, nothing would be the same anymore.

marta baglioni · Post by **marta baglioni** » 14 Jul 2021, 08:42

Anna Bookowski wrote: ↑14 Jul 2021, 04:25 For the court to take this line of defense into account, the multiverse theory should be proven first. As long as it's only the concept, it would be very hard for the judge to take it seriously.
The other thing is that no matter which Gary would be sentenced for this murder because all of them are in fact the same person. This is implied by the multiverse theory that is a ground base for the story. But imagine if it would be so simple to just jump from one worldline to another and communicate with each other. I guess the whole balance of the universe would be impacted by this and then, nothing would be the same anymore.

Oooh, this last point you made is really exciting!
Imagine the lines as threads. They cross and intertwine the one with the other, forming a cloth, the Multiverse. This has his rules.
But what if the threads combined in another way, forming a different pattern, a different cloth? What if there are multiple Multiverses, each with its own rules? Maybe in one of them is possible to jump from a line to the other.

Anna Bookowski · Post by **Anna Bookowski** » 14 Jul 2021, 09:29

marba wrote: ↑14 Jul 2021, 08:42
Anna Bookowski wrote: ↑14 Jul 2021, 04:25 For the court to take this line of defense into account, the multiverse theory should be proven first. As long as it's only the concept, it would be very hard for the judge to take it seriously.
The other thing is that no matter which Gary would be sentenced for this murder because all of them are in fact the same person. This is implied by the multiverse theory that is a ground base for the story. But imagine if it would be so simple to just jump from one worldline to another and communicate with each other. I guess the whole balance of the universe would be impacted by this and then, nothing would be the same anymore.
Oooh, this last point you made is really exciting!
Imagine the lines as threads. They cross and intertwine the one with the other, forming a cloth, the Multiverse. This has his rules.
But what if the threads combined in another way, forming a different pattern, a different cloth? What if there are multiple Multiverses, each with its own rules? Maybe in one of them is possible to jump from a line to the other.

If the theory would be true, then definitely in one (or more!) of the worldlines you could easily connect with the others. One of the questions would be: how? The other: what would be the consequences? And if we take a close look at how, according to the new science, the Universe works, it seems highly possible that there would be universes within universes. This all is a bit messed up, haha.
On the side question: do you know what is a quantum superposition? If you find this subject exciting, I can recommend you to google it. In my opinion, it's a nice analogy to Gary's situation, as well as to us all in general.

shreya_davessar · Post by **shreya_davessar** » 14 Jul 2021, 17:29

I don't think that he should plead guilty in court because it was another worldline Gary that committed the murder through lucid dreaming. No doubt, the video was a strong evidence against him but it wasn't really him and as we know, in some of the worldlines he was eventually able to prove his innocence.

yomide · Post by **yomide** » 14 Jul 2021, 19:38

Anna Bookowski wrote: ↑14 Jul 2021, 04:21
Judy_Jemutai7 wrote: ↑12 Jul 2021, 19:36 I don't think Gary should plead guilty in court as he committed the murder unconsciously. As a result, the element of intent, which is crucial in the determination of guilt is lacking to complete the offence.
I'm not sure if this is entirely true. As an example think of being under influence of drugs. Maybe you're not even aware that someone drugged you. Let's say that on your way back home from the club, you killed someone. You have no idea you did it, you don't remember it. But there's a street camera and a record of you doing it. So what about the element of intention you're talking about? You committed a murder, no matter if you planned or wanted to do it. Of course, the circumstances should be taken into account by the court, the sentence could not be the same as for a serial cold-blooded killer. But still.

I have to agree with you @A@Anna Bookowski Even when the circstances are thoroughly considered, it is of no much help to Gary. The evidence against him as well as witnesses is still as strong as concrete pillars. I am afraid that with those evidence, if he pleads guilty he'll be written off as a cold blooded killer. And if he didn't, well we all know how that played out in the book.