Do you think Gary should plead guilty in court?

Fabulous mind · Post by **Fabulous mind** » 15 Jul 2021, 16:30

It would really be insane for him to plead guilty, especially when he knows he never committed the crime. Also, after learning from the lawyer about being possessed, I think he made the right choice, trying to proof he was not guilty.

Troy Barnes · Post by **Troy Barnes** » 16 Jul 2021, 04:04

Anna Bookowski wrote: ↑14 Jul 2021, 04:25
Troy Barnes wrote: ↑13 Jul 2021, 09:09 This was a very strong point of contention for me . I felt that the blue line Gary being held responsible for his fiancée's death was a grave injustice and they should have found a way to have black line Gary tried for murder. Blue line Gary should not plead guilty because he's in no way responsible.
For the court to take this line of defense into account, the multiverse theory should be proven first. As long as it's only the concept, it would be very hard for the judge to take it seriously.
The other thing is that no matter which Gary would be sentenced for this murder because all of them are in fact the same person. This is implied by the multiverse theory that is a ground base for the story. But imagine if it would be so simple to just jump from one worldline to another and communicate with each other. I guess the whole balance of the universe would be impacted by this and then, nothing would be the same anymore.

I dont think the balance of the universe would be affected by the communication of the different worlds Gary's. After all there was a woman who constantly lucid dreamed and hopped in and out of different worlds and different versions of herself with no apparent adverse effects. Its not an earthshattering event and I believe it could be developed more for widespread communication with the other worlds.

Anna Bookowski · Post by **Anna Bookowski** » 16 Jul 2021, 08:29

Troy Barnes wrote: ↑16 Jul 2021, 04:04
Anna Bookowski wrote: ↑14 Jul 2021, 04:25
Troy Barnes wrote: ↑13 Jul 2021, 09:09 This was a very strong point of contention for me . I felt that the blue line Gary being held responsible for his fiancée's death was a grave injustice and they should have found a way to have black line Gary tried for murder. Blue line Gary should not plead guilty because he's in no way responsible.
For the court to take this line of defense into account, the multiverse theory should be proven first. As long as it's only the concept, it would be very hard for the judge to take it seriously.
The other thing is that no matter which Gary would be sentenced for this murder because all of them are in fact the same person. This is implied by the multiverse theory that is a ground base for the story. But imagine if it would be so simple to just jump from one worldline to another and communicate with each other. I guess the whole balance of the universe would be impacted by this and then, nothing would be the same anymore.
I dont think the balance of the universe would be affected by the communication of the different worlds Gary's. After all there was a woman who constantly lucid dreamed and hopped in and out of different worlds and different versions of herself with no apparent adverse effects. Its not an earthshattering event and I believe it could be developed more for widespread communication with the other worlds.

I don't think I can agree with that. We should keep in mind that this is just a story from the book. There's absolutely no even basic evidence that you can travel or communicate through the medium of lucid dreaming - at this moment scientists don't even comprehend the nature of dreaming itself. And the idea of interworld communication this way is the author's personal idea, used for the story's purposes.
But we know from physics that every action causes a reaction. To think that you could communicate with other worlds with no serious consequences whatsoever is a bit naive. You can google the subject and read some scientific articles in the field of quantum physics to get a better understanding of the subject. I promise you it's much more complex than you may think

Anna Bookowski · Post by **Anna Bookowski** » 16 Jul 2021, 08:33

Fabulous mind wrote: ↑15 Jul 2021, 16:30 It would really be insane for him to plead guilty, especially when he knows he never committed the crime. Also, after learning from the lawyer about being possessed, I think he made the right choice, trying to proof he was not guilty.

I also supposed that he should not plead guilty, but - once again - we need to understand that he did commit the crime. I see that this is misunderstood by many readers. If you did something, you did something. You can't say you didn't. It's a different issue if you remember it, if it was intentional, and if you should be punished for it like a common criminal (I guess not). Of course, you can still try to prove not guilty or apply for a lighter treatment because of the unusual circumstances.

Post by **Sharill Rasowo** » 17 Jul 2021, 10:07

This one is a complex situation. However, he would have a defense in a court of law, "automatism". Where an accused suggests that they committed an offense involuntarily, they are raising the defense of automatism. The defense of automatism arises from one of the very basic principles of criminal law that is embedded in case law: that an accused cannot be found guilty of an act which occurred independently of their will. Here his volition or will was absent thus he should plead not guilty.

Anna Bookowski · Post by **Anna Bookowski** » 18 Jul 2021, 05:57

Cher432 wrote: ↑17 Jul 2021, 10:07 This one is a complex situation. However, he would have a defense in a court of law, "automatism". Where an accused suggests that they committed an offense involuntarily, they are raising the defense of automatism. The defense of automatism arises from one of the very basic principles of criminal law that is embedded in case law: that an accused cannot be found guilty of an act which occurred independently of their will. Here his volition or will was absent thus he should plead not guilty.

That sounds reasonable indeed. However, I wonder how does it apply to the situation in which the accused person is under the influence, let's say alcohol or drugs or hypnosis? You might as well say that you caused an accident or beat someone up independently of your will because you don't remember it and in normal circumstances, you'd never do such a thing. I'm curious what the law says in such a situation?
Otherwise, my senses also tell me that he should not plead guilty.

Nancy Morara · Post by **Nancy Morara** » 19 Jul 2021, 09:12

Let's think of this scenario, you are a sleep walker and while at sleep , you get this disturbing dream and since you are a sleepwalker you actually live your dream. You walk straight to the kitchen, pick a knife and sturb yourself to death .Who killed you? Yap, get me now? Gary should plead guilty because it was him who killed Mitchell. He is responsible for her death even though he doesn't remember it. If he wasn't lucid dreaming he wouldn't have killed Mitchell. If he truly loved her as he claimed, he must plead guilty as he couldn't have killed the poor girl if he hadn't lucid dreamt.

Anna Bookowski · Post by **Anna Bookowski** » 19 Jul 2021, 10:15

Nancy Morara wrote: ↑19 Jul 2021, 09:12 Let's think of this scenario, you are a sleep walker and while at sleep , you get this disturbing dream and since you are a sleepwalker you actually live your dream. You walk straight to the kitchen, pick a knife and sturb yourself to death .Who killed you? Yap, get me now? Gary should plead guilty because it was him who killed Mitchell. He is responsible for her death even though he doesn't remember it. If he wasn't lucid dreaming he wouldn't have killed Mitchell. If he truly loved her as he claimed, he must plead guilty as he couldn't have killed the poor girl if he hadn't lucid dreamt.

Yes, this argument is similar to the one I suggested before: when for example someone added drugs to your drink in the bar and you don't remember what you did after all - let's say you caused a car accident or hurt someone. Even though it was not your intention and you don't even remember it, you still did it and nothing can change it. In the case of Gary's story, there's also an additional aspect: all the Garys are in fact the very same person, just existing in different worldlines. So no matter which Gary did it, it's still the same person.
But even though, I still feel sorry for this particular Gary which was kind of framed by his other self, not intentionally, but still. Because of his utter love for Michelle, I don't think he should plead guilty (even though he is) because this is the last possible way for him to protect his dignity and self-respect. The chances that he'll be sentenced in most of the possible worldlines are rather enormous, but as someone said before, there's not even one reason he could tell Michelle's parents when pleading guilty and asked WHY did he do that.

Benaron · Post by **Benaron** » 19 Jul 2021, 11:41

ROSEYANN wrote: ↑01 Jul 2021, 09:47
Anna Bookowski wrote: ↑01 Jul 2021, 09:35 Do you think Gary should plead guilty or not? His father advised him to do so in order to pay respect to Michelle's parents. Mrs. Cohen advised him to plead not guilty as he did not remember his actions. Gary in prison was sure he did not commit the crime, but whether he was in control of his actions or not, he did commit the murder. What do you think?
I think this surrounds the whole issue of intention. Gary loved Michelle and had no intention of harming her and having no recollections of committing the crime may be a valid reason for him not pleading guilty.

Your response makes sense, how could you plead guilty for something you didn't do or even intend to do? It's not his fault a different worldline version of him killed Michelle.

Arite Seki · Post by **Arite Seki** » 19 Jul 2021, 15:12

I think Michelle's family would find it more meaningful if he were to plead guilty. I don't think his theory (which just so happens to be the truth) would be believed by anyone and so he would go to jail either way. If I were him, I would please guilty but I definitely understand why he wouldn't want to since he lost someone as well as his whole life

Anna Bookowski · Post by **Anna Bookowski** » 20 Jul 2021, 08:58

Arite Seki wrote: ↑19 Jul 2021, 15:12 I think Michelle's family would find it more meaningful if he were to plead guilty. I don't think his theory (which just so happens to be the truth) would be believed by anyone and so he would go to jail either way. If I were him, I would please guilty but I definitely understand why he wouldn't want to since he lost someone as well as his whole life

This seems right, but how could he explain himself to her parents? If he'd plead guilty, they'd like to hear a reason for this, because they've known each other for many years. I don't suppose they'd actually believe the explanation of multiverse, as most people wouldn't. They'd more probably think he's insane.

mbhuibregtse · Post by **mbhuibregtse** » 20 Jul 2021, 12:00

Probably. What they said about thinking about Michelle's family is true. It is so hard to wrap your head around what happened, so it would be a wild ride to have him plead not guilty. In no reality, would that video evidence be ignored.

Susan Kihleng · Post by **Susan Kihleng** » 20 Jul 2021, 22:07

I have to admit, this book has caused me to spend way too much time thinking about an "impossible" situation. The question of pleading guilty or not is not an easy one. While he has no recollection of committing the crime, Gary technically did do it. With that in mind, could he live with the guilt of being released and not having to pay for a crime that, while unintentional, he did commit? Honestly, I'm not even sure if there really is a right or wrong answer to whether or not he should plead guilty.

Anil G · Post by **Anil G** » 21 Jul 2021, 03:48

ROSEYANN wrote: ↑01 Jul 2021, 09:47
Anna Bookowski wrote: ↑01 Jul 2021, 09:35 Do you think Gary should plead guilty or not? His father advised him to do so to pay respect to Michelle's parents. Mrs Cohen advised him to plead not guilty as he did not remember his actions. Gary in prison was sure he did not commit the crime, but whether he was in control of his actions or not, he did commit the murder. What do you think?
I think this surrounds the whole issue of intention. Gary loved Michelle and had no intention of harming her and having no recollections of committing the crime may be a valid reason for him not pleading guilty.

Yes, I agree with you! An accused will be guilty of a crime if he/she had a guilty mind. Means, intention to do a certain crime. In this case, Gary's doesn't have the intention to commit the murder. The answer is he shouldn't have pleaded guilty and let the court have decided on basis of the fact!

Anna Bookowski · Post by **Anna Bookowski** » 21 Jul 2021, 05:59

mbhuibregtse wrote: ↑20 Jul 2021, 12:00 Probably. What they said about thinking about Michelle's family is true. It is so hard to wrap your head around what happened, so it would be a wild ride to have him plead not guilty. In no reality, would that video evidence be ignored.

Exactly, the evidence like video, plus numerous witnesses... This would be an almost impossible task to prove not guilty. However, from the depth of human sympathy and understanding the horror of the situation, it's hard to expect this Gary to plead guilty. He doesn't feel guilty because of obvious reasons. It's so confusing; I've no idea what would I do in a similar situation!